Do all primary schools have behaviour issues?

[Wildflowers99]

Looking for a new primary for (well behaved, fairly academic) DD and without exception every OFSTED mentions things like ‘a significant number of children who struggle with appropriate behaviour’, or similar phrases to this.

It’s really disheartening. DD’s current school has a lot of children who are behind or struggle with behaviour and I was hoping to move her to a classroom environment better suited to her. We live in a very average area, some more deprived areas, some very middle class, but this seems to be an issue wherever I look.

Do I just give up and accept basically all primaries are like this?

DD is in Y2 and the school catchment is fairly affluent. There’s probably 6/7 children in her class who are disruptive, but I think we’ve been fairly lucky. The most disruptive child left at Christmas.

Try private?
At my children's you have to go through an assessment day before being offered a place in Reception.
If anyone exhibits consistently unacceptable behaviour they are asked to leave.
It's a happy, calm, environment.

Not everyone has £2k spare a month for one child.

Although I do agree with you, wholeheartedly.

Agree with this, my son is autistic and is extremely compliant at school, he loves the structure and routine and finds it stressful when there's lots going on/overly disruptive stuff going on around him.

@Wildflowers99 I agree with others, you need to probably go into a school, have a tour, speak to the teachers and sencos etc, ask on local groups for different experiences, rather than rely on Ofsted reports.

This sounds really cynical, but it’s exactly what we are planning to do with DD - we’re planning on leaving a two-form entry primary in outer London (which itself is small by local standards) and moving her to a small village school outside a market town. DD is high achieving, keen to learn and compliant, and being closely involved with her school I am only too aware how much learning time is lost due to behavioural issues in her class and the wider school. We are also planning on sending her to a girls’ school for secondary as it is very clear that most of the disruption is caused by boys (not actually their fault in many cases as it’s often due to inadequately managed SEND needs and inability to cope with a static, academic curriculum).

DD’s current school is historically one of the better ones in our area, but behaviour post-covid has become much more of an issue, and it also has a reputation for being inclusive and nurturing that means it has become a popular choice for families with SEND children. A tipping point has unfortunately now been reached whereby the SEND needs have massively increased in frequency and severity, at the same time as funding and staffing being cut. Most of the class teachers’ and SLT’s bandwidth is now taken up by SEND, with the middle and higher ability children essentially being treated an an amorphous mass whose main role is just to prop the school’s SATs results up for them - there is absolutely no individual input for the majority of children.

Schools with ‘well-behaved’ pupils do exist but sadly they’re mainly in the private sector where children with SEN are often weeded out.

Not according to countless mumsnet threads regarding the government's VAT policy for private schools. 🤔

As others have said, the thing that varies is the school's management of behaviour, not necessarily the number of children with behavioural problems. In terms of SEN, dd's school has quite a high number of dc with EHCPs (including dd), but that actually means they're well supported and less disruptive as a result. Excellent teachers makes a huge difference, too.

It's completely wrong to conflate SEN/ALN and poor behaviour.

But then, with respect, all the funding goes on maintaining the EHCP or 121 and the other children are deprived as a result. DD’s head has been quite clear with me about this. A high number of SEN children will always disadvantage those without SEN as they need more resources.

This is so sad to read @TempsPerdu. Being a governor for a bit was a real eye opener. I realised then I couldn’t expect compliant DC like mine (who can be terrors at home btw but just angelic largely at school!) would never be a priority when there were bigger issues to tackle. I would urge caution though in moving to the sticks for schooling. Sometimes more ambitious teachers want to be in the city - warts and all - and these schools can be better resourced than rural ones. For many years London had the highest achieving state schools though that may have changed now.

I agree @Whatafustercluck. Many of the DC with SEN in private are not disruptive because they’re in a smaller setting so not as likely to get overwhelmed if they for example have autism. They’re also more likely to get support if they have dyslexia etc. The ones weeded out would be those with off the scale disruptive tendencies.

Ask around OP.

Local parents know which schools can either provide the correct support for children who need support to learn or exclude students, for whatever reason, because they are not only not learning themselves they are disruptive and/or a danger to staff and other pupils.

Our youngster's Head is super, he protects his teacher's as well as all the students, which is what you need, better to expel one pupil than have a great teacher walk out and affect the education of 29 others.

The local parent's grapevine is where you need to go.

Yes there are schools where learning is consistent and possible, they are likely to be oversubscribed with long waiting lists, failing that find out where you should be looking at secondary and make sure you are in a position to get a place in those schools.

If behaviour keeps deteriorating schools will basically be babysitting buildings where children go so their parents can go to work to provide taxes for an education system that gives fuck all too their kids.

Wonder how long before we see schools being closed because no teacher will work there?

Most state primary schools will have children who have a wide range of behaviours from compliant to disruptive. All schools have behavioural policies. How the school handles the mix they have within school is the what you are seeking. However, there is no way, apart from local knowledge to know what a school is like on a day to day basis and even then it all depends on the cohort that is admitted in the year your DC is also admitted.

The only way to minimise disruption would be to apply to a selective private school. Even then you may encounter disruptive pupils but selective private schools are more likely to ask them to leave.

If you can not or do not want to use a private school, the only other option is to move your DC until you find an establishment that suits them better.

@ArightmoverYes I absolutely get this and you’re right to say that on paper London schools are indeed often better resourced and higher achieving. However, increasingly most of those local to us are also huge, soulless/cookie cutter and anonymous (in the case of primaries) or run along zero tolerance military lines (in the case of secondaries, as this is the only way they can achieve the good results). As someone who attended a lovely grammar with a liberal ethos this is a bitter pill to swallow!

We’ve done our research and are confident that the area we’re looking to move to is better on this front. I’m also a governor at DD’s current primary, and can see that very clearly the issues they’re struggling with. There’s also the issue of falling birth rates in London, which means less funding going forward. The direction of travel is unfortunately very much towards an increasingly anonymous, cookie cutter model, where non-SEND DC are treated as data points rather than individuals, and we are keen to avoid this as far as possible for our own DD.

Which is a good thing for well behaved kids who want to learn

Or they don't accept them in the first place, if you are unable to offer the support a child needs, just unable, not that you wouldn't like to, but you just don't have the budget for another 1:1 say, why not say so rather than waste everyone's time and many teaching hours before the same result that the child is not going to get an education in that setting is reached.

No it doesn't. They're given extra money (per pupil) for the additional resources required to support those with EHCPs, for things like one to one support. This is on top of core funding for the school. So if the school is run properly, none of the children need be disadvantaged.

Well exactly @FiveWhatByFiveWhat

This is absolutely true, more so than ever.

When my oldest (now year 4) started at their wonderful village primary 4 years ago, every class had 2 class TA's, 1 to 1's were additional. Now, most classes have 1 or none. A year 2 child with high additional needs (waiting nearly a year for EHCP as council is so slow) pushed my youngests (year 1) class TA off the stage, broke her hand and she has been off for 10 weeks as complex fracture, so there has been no small group interventions and support, her teacher is brilliant but I can see the impact on her learning of not having their experienced class TA for a term. Other classes have lost their TA's to reception to support with the high number (about a fifth) who joined in nappies, plus other linked SEN needs.

An EHCP listing a 1 to 1 comes with about 15k of funding. They cost around 20k to employ, with on costs. And if they are off, the school has to cover them. And that's even if the EHCP comes through, at least 10 are waiting them, and school is funding their 1 to 1's out of overall budget.

Their head is kind, dynamic, caring, proactive, but she is starting to look beaten down - the demands of covering SEN out of an ever shrinking budget, whilst trying to give the best possible education experience to all the children is an impossible task. A thriving, inclusive school has lost its momentum under the weight of SEN funding pressures and funding cuts. Like she says, they are a victim of their own success, they have a strong reputation for excellent SEN support, but this positive is now becoming their negative.

What they get doesn't full cover support listed in EHCP's unfortunately, the schools have to find the first 5k themselves, which, if you have many children with SEN, really eats into our school budget.

Because the council don't let you.

Our school received 20 obligations for children with significant SEN for ladt years reception entry. Of the 20, we felt we could meet needs of about 5, and this wasn't even about budget, bit that we felt it wasn't an appropriate setting for their specific needs. For each of the other 15 we completed a lengthy form (each one takes senco hours to do) stating why couldn't meet need. Of the 15, only 6 got agreed by the council and they forced us to take the other 9.

But the issue here is the shrinking budget eh?

I'm seriously considering homeschooling.

As far as a I know there are some changes coming to homeschooling too. The automatic right to homeschool will be (is already?) removed and you’d need to jump some hoops to get approved by the council.
I'm sure someone will correct me if I’ve got that wrong. But it sounds like gov is trying to discourage people from homeschooling.

Oh good, more government overreach and more erosion of our freedoms.

If more parents are homeschooling, maybe they should ask why that is.

I'm sorry for my tone, I know you were just trying to inform so thank you.