Do all primary schools have behaviour issues?

[Wildflowers99]

Looking for a new primary for (well behaved, fairly academic) DD and without exception every OFSTED mentions things like ‘a significant number of children who struggle with appropriate behaviour’, or similar phrases to this.

It’s really disheartening. DD’s current school has a lot of children who are behind or struggle with behaviour and I was hoping to move her to a classroom environment better suited to her. We live in a very average area, some more deprived areas, some very middle class, but this seems to be an issue wherever I look.

Do I just give up and accept basically all primaries are like this?

If you’re involved with social services for children protection reasons then you can’t automatically move to home schooling.

I think it’s a sensible step.

@Walrusdressno, I absolutely share your feeling about that. It doesn’t make sense in a time where we see schools are struggling.

@Schoolfailureso, it’s just for children involved with social services? I didn’t realise.
Sorry, if I misled people.

Just children who have social services involvement who can’t automatically remove children. And it’s only for children who are deemed at risk not those who have a social worker because of their disability.

There is greater monitoring of HE but again that all about protecting children from abuse.

Gosh that sounds dreadful.

I think if I was putting ours into reception now we would try and find the money for private.

Our eldest is sitting GCSEs next month so his schooling days almost over, and his 6th form are conditional offers. And the youngster is year 9 and his academy secondary is full to bursting waiting list (because it's ace) and there seems very little disruption in his classes, they have a separate area for pupils of high disruption assuming this is why, I don't ask it's only relevant if it's relevant to his education.

It sounds like since they started, a decade ago, disruption and the insistence that pupils have to be in a main classroom, ours had the odd one or two, actually in the classroom, the playground was another matter but that was always thus.

I was generally supportive of your concerns until I read this comment. If your darling child was to be in an autism specialist school where the pupils required a profile of achieving at age appropriate level.

It is likely they would be in classes with pupils who are academically highly capable and future Doctoral level students, there is a high than average number of doctoral level students who are neurodivergent than any other level of education.

However, due to the pupil being autistic therefore meeting a SEN Category would be an issue for you. While I am not a fluffy behaviourist and I am well aware there is a difference between negative behaviour that is due to SEN and behaviour that the pupil being naughty. I believe that negative behaviour’s need to managed in all pupils and not disrupt learning for other pupils.

Your view is offensive to say the least. It is due to parents and professionals like yourself that I as a child was ostracised and isolated. How dare I want to be educated as a child in care and a deaf child I should have been in a segregation away from polite society. Fortunately, I survived although struggle with self belief. That child in care and SEN child is now a Professional Doctorate in Education candidate would you be horrified if I was training the teachers and professionals to guide your child, after all I am an adult with SEN.

Incidentally, what would you do if the worst happened and your child developed a SEN need due to ill-health or an accident? Would you still be complaining then or would you be demanding an EHCP with the bells and whistles on?

No, not all.

Our village Primary has never had an issue and they are in no way strict or anything.

On the occasion a child has had a bit of an episode (and by that I mean low level - a bit of a fight in the playground, a bit of name calling - normal things) it is soon heard about by everyone and dealt with quickly.

I remember DS being so shocked when he heard another child say 'No' to a teacher. To hear him tell the tale you'd think the kid had told her to feck right off and chinned her.

He has also been really shocked by some of the behaviour in secondary. He's at a grammar and I think he expected all of the kids to be quite polite and focused on work but there've been a few kick offs, so far.

It is a combination of factors causing issues

• not enough special school places so children are sometimes placed inappropriately in mainstream
• budget cuts - a mainstream place with a 1 to 1 is still usually cheaper than most special schools, so councils push for that
• parental choice - of course parents should have a say, but what no one likes to say is that they don't always know best which school will be most suitable for their child- they know their child but they don't know all the schools. Some are unrealistic "if my child is in a class with children who talk, they will go from being non verbal to talking by copying them" - it's not that simple.
• lack of specialist health professionals such as educational psychologists, OT's etc. EHCPs cannot be completed until all necessary reports received, so the process of accurately establishing need can be very slow

As a professional, I will keep trying to improve standards in mainstream. As a parent, we are intensively tutoring to try to get DD1 through the 11+, as we can't really afford private for both our girls, but our local comp is dire in terms of behaviour

I know some non-SEND children's parents who are so hands off and will never discipline their precious offspring, part of the reason for our secondary choices (but we are so glad they made us play our hand it actually turned out better in the end).

If parents want good local schools, not arguing with teachers or making any demands on their own children's behaviour is not the way to go about it.

Your child would suit a school with a very low SEN intake?

Jesus Fucking Christ, what a cunty thing to say.

Lucky, lucky you having never been touched or effected by a child with SEN.

@Wildflowers99 you do realise that a high portion of "Sen kids" thrive off a quiet, calm environment and good routine, right??

I'd suggest you take your precious child out and home school, that way you can be assured she won't be contaminated or dragged down by all these awful "other" children.

Oh and also, you do realise that NT children can cause chaos and disruption too, right??

Jesus Christ.

This thread is not really in good faith as it's blaming all disruptive behaviour on Sen kids which is totally inaccurate. The only bullying ive seen is two (to my eye) NT girls being unkind to a third.

My DD's school has an ASD unit and she has had no behaviour issues in her class. Very MC area (ie all houses £1m plus in catchment)

Actually what would help is shorter waitlists for adhd diagnosis and medication, most kids i know have turned into model pupils once they have the medication they need.

Surely the point is DISRUPTIVE kids. Not necessarily with SEN. Kids that are disrupting the rest of the class constantly shouldn't be in it. Maybe one classroom per school for the disrupters and the rest than learn in peace

Yes, I did say disruptive but instantly everyone said ‘they probably have SEN’.

Some fairly offensive comments here, perhaps unintentionally. They are not, “SEN children”. Saying your child is “academic” so therefore doesn’t belong around those children is laughable. My child has SEND and got her first GCSE in Year 8. Sometimes pupils don’t have SEND but they do have other unmet needs. SEND is not the route of all evil. There is no bridge between special schools and mainstream available. Also, having SEND is not an identity. Society has changed and respect from children towards their teachers/TAs is at an all-time low. This is where a lot of the behaviour comes from. It comes from home and screens. Parents are not available to their children like they were. When they are, they are too tired to really focus on them in many cases.

Yes but this doesn't happen. The driving philosophy is that all kids should be in the same room learning the same stuff as their classmates. Even if they are working at a level 5 years behind and calling the teacher a .

My son's primary school is excellent. Ofsted outstanding in all areas (if you are into ofsted ratings! I'm not sure they mean much!)

There are lots of children with a diverse range of needs, from gifted and talented, to kids with lots of energy, to kids who prefer to sit quietly, to kids that can't manage a hectic environment, to kids from poverty and kids whose parents own million pounds houses! It's a school that reflects life in all its beautiful variety.

My son prefers a quiet environment, but it's great he is pushed a little out of his comfort zone. He's learning tolerance and acceptance of others and how to manage in different environments and with different people.

I don't think sheltering kids from reality and only allowing them to mix with quiet kids or smart kids or whatever, is helpful for their social skills and future success. All kids need to learn to interact with all different types of people that reflect real life. Imo!

There’ll always be a naughty child. You can see this in swimming classes/other classes/clubs. I don’t think I’ve been to one when there’s not a naughty kid there.

Do you mean he's been excluded because the other parents don't like him? Are you aware that's illegal?
My DS has SEN but I bet the parents at his former school (who never added me to the school WhatsApp and then used it to tell each other to report their objection to his existence) thought he was "just badly behaved with no boundaries".

That's kind of interesting in some ways because it sort of shows that inclusion doesn't work very well currently. I can believe this because except one every parent of a child with SEN I know (which is a lot) wants their child in a special school.

Do you mean "inclusion doesn't work for the children" or "parents of children without SEN don't want inclusion because their children might catch SEN so schools try not to cater for children with SEN in case they lose the children who will push up their SATs scores".

Sorry, I think I mean that inclusion in mainstream schools as they currently are doesn't work for anyone. Most mainstream schools have lots of curriculum they have to get through and traditional behaviour management techniques, both of which tend not to work for lots of children with SEN. Also parents of neurotypical children often don't want children with SEN behaviour needs in their mainstream schools.

It seems to create this division where families with disabled children go one way and families with neurotypical children the other because, in my opinion at least,it's very difficult to educate both groups together in a standard classroom set up.

I'm tired but what I'm trying to say is that I have two disabled children and I am all for inclusion in theory but would never want them to go to a mainstream school (they've been in special schools since reception). If I'm being brutally honest, I very much doubt many other parents would be happy if my DC were in their kids' mainstream classes.

Almost every state primary I, other teaching friends and other mum friends have experience with, have students who struggle with behaviour.
The only exception is my friends highly selective private school.

What you are seeing is the result of years of numerous cuts to state school and local authority budgets. Years ago there were T.As in most classes plus floating TAs who could run booster classes, learning mentors, 1:1 provision and the school often had enough money that a child who needed full time support could have a 1:1 for most of the day, nest or nurture provision, family support workers, a non teaching SENCO, local authority school support for SEN children, access to Ed Pyschs/ Speech and Language therapists ect. All of that is decimated now. Most classes do not have a T.A, floating TAs who can run boosters or go and help a class at last minute are like rocking horse poo. Learning mentors/ nest and nurture provision are very much a thing of the past in most schools (these provisions picked up those children who struggled in school for all different reasons whether family/ academic or social reasons they have some children a much needed break from the classroom and their behaviour was generally improved when they returned). Most SENCOs now have at least some teaching responsibilities and some even have a full time class leaving then with little time for caseloads and ensuring children are supported correctly. Waiting lists for Ed Pyschs/ speech and language ect are really long (years in some places). Unsupported needs shows up in behaviour.

Then there is the fact so many teachers are leaving the profession so in some places there is a real shortage of experienced veteran teachers who can support and advise younger and less experienced teachers.

My dd2 sounds similar to yours. Perfect for her would have been covid lock down for years 4 and 5 and then a grammar school. It’s actually what she got!
Lock down was brilliant for her (and all the similar kids). They logged at 9am, listened to the teacher on a video for 30 minutes or so, then completed the work set. Dd was finishing it all by about 11am. I spoke to the teacher to ask if she could have the normal amount of work set in a day, as she wasn’t struggling at all with lock down and I assumed the teacher was setting less because of it. Quite surprised when the teacher detailed that was the normal amount! But with no distractions - all the kids were on mute whilst teacher explained - the kids could go so much quicker.

I also agree that inclusion in its current form (a money saving exercise where SEN children are placed in mainstream regardless of need with the bare minimum support provided until the child fails and their class mates suffer in order to save the govt and L.A. money) does not work and is entirely unfit for purpose.

I trained when inclusion was the new shiny thing everyone was singing and dancing about. I remember reading quite a bit at university (in academic journals) at the time about how they envisioned inclusion working and what the intended purpose of inclusion was. One thing I remember was talked about was children who were placed in special needs classes (very common in the 90s) purely because they had multi skeletal issues or required wheelchairs but no academic or behavioral need to be in the special needs class. They argued that those children should (quite rightly) be with their peers in mainstream.

Similarly there was something about what used to be children with Asperger's and "high functioning autism" who again were in special needs classes but academically were in line with their peers - again with some support should be offered the chance in mainstream education.

It was very much about the fact there were some children in special needs classes who academically were in line or close to in line with their peers and would manage with support in mainstream settings.

There were others that spoke about how in some cases the special needs classes were not included in school life (not attending assemblies, different play times, lunch in classroom rather than lunch hall ect) and therefore these children were othered. Instead the author recommended that SN classes should where possible be part of the wider school life.

Nowhere do I remember reading anything about mainstream at all costs and denying SS places to children who need them.