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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Friend lost to church

107 replies

Changedusernameforthis2 · 26/03/2025 07:45

Hello
Changed my username for this. I just need to vent I suppose. Friend of many years says she can no longer be friends with me (and a few others) as we are against her faith. She says she only wants friends who are Christians. I'm baffled by this. I grew up with parents who were Christians (mum more than dad ) and I enjoyed church, and have gone intermittently in my adult years. I really enjoy the volunteering element of church and helping with the projects etc but I've always been clear with everyone that I'm not sure I believe in God. There are a few people at every church I have been to who also share this feeling, it's not uncommon.
The church she goes to is pretty fundamental (no gay people, etc and when I went there once, Trump was mentioned in the sermon and half the people clapped. I'm in the UK btw)
I'm equally sad, baffled and annoyed.
I knowntheres nothing I can really do, but I feel like she is being radicalised!

OP posts:
Changedusernameforthis2 · 26/03/2025 10:48

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I'm not sure why you are pursuing this.
I'm a genuine poster. The course is to learn what the bible says about being gay and how it is not recognised by this church and how to overcome being gay
It's as PP stated, there's no one blocking the door to stop a gay person coming in, but it's very heavily frowned upon and openly disuaded

OP posts:
RaininSummer · 26/03/2025 10:50

Church people can be very odd and rude if you're not part of their cult. Quite hypocritical.

Cyclebabble · 26/03/2025 10:51

Changedusernameforthis2 · 26/03/2025 10:48

I'm not sure why you are pursuing this.
I'm a genuine poster. The course is to learn what the bible says about being gay and how it is not recognised by this church and how to overcome being gay
It's as PP stated, there's no one blocking the door to stop a gay person coming in, but it's very heavily frowned upon and openly disuaded

Not quite what the OP said, but for awareness religious groups are not subject to discrimination laws in the same way as the rest of society. So they can quite legally discriminate on grounds of sex and sexual orientation.

Cyclebabble · 26/03/2025 10:53

Sorry OP, meant to quote the original poster.

Poutysorry · 26/03/2025 11:04

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Poutysorry · 26/03/2025 11:05

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Nevertrustacop · 26/03/2025 11:06

Cyclebabble · 26/03/2025 10:51

Not quite what the OP said, but for awareness religious groups are not subject to discrimination laws in the same way as the rest of society. So they can quite legally discriminate on grounds of sex and sexual orientation.

Yes. Exactly. It might be unpleasant but it's not illegal. People are allowed to believe being gay is wrong and to say so. And to encourage other to 'not be gay'

Skye99 · 26/03/2025 11:15

I’m an evangelical Christian. No informed Christian thinks ‘being gay is wrong.’ There’s a difference between sexual orientation and having sex. The Bible says that gay sex is a sin. But it also says that all sex outside straight marriage is a sin.

It’s not a sin to be gay any more than it is to be straight. It’s gay sex that’s considered to be wrong – and you don’t have to be gay to have gay sex (I’ve heard it’s quite common in male prisons, for example).

Cyclebabble · 26/03/2025 11:16

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Fairly obviously as to do so would identify both the OP and her friend.

Rubixbutt · 26/03/2025 11:21

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It’s not that baffling to understand that OP and her friend would be outed if she wasn’t discrete.

Mama2many73 · 26/03/2025 11:25

Mwydryn · 26/03/2025 07:49

I'd have to get in touch to say you're sorry she feels that way, and that you have concerns about the church and its teachings. If she is familiar with the story of Christ, it's not exactly difficult to see that his teachings are the exact opposite to the hatred spouted by Trump. I'm always really shocked by how people can square their Christian faith with a Trumpean mindset.

I remember seeing a folded pamphlet for a church which said 'what Jesus's said about gay people'. When you opened it , it was empty and then on the back it had something about loving everyone.
Has stayed with me!

Cyclebabble · 26/03/2025 11:30

Skye99 · 26/03/2025 11:15

I’m an evangelical Christian. No informed Christian thinks ‘being gay is wrong.’ There’s a difference between sexual orientation and having sex. The Bible says that gay sex is a sin. But it also says that all sex outside straight marriage is a sin.

It’s not a sin to be gay any more than it is to be straight. It’s gay sex that’s considered to be wrong – and you don’t have to be gay to have gay sex (I’ve heard it’s quite common in male prisons, for example).

Sorry but very many evangelical Christians think that being gay is wrong. As to the idea that its okay as long as you never have a gay relationship, I just cannot follow the logic. Other than it being developed as compromise by the CofE to allow for the very large number of gay priests to live peacefully in an active relationship with their partners. A gay person attending an evangelical Church would be told that a physical gay relationship would be harmful and as a result, their mental health would be at risk. They also could not become the full person they should.

Changedusernameforthis2 · 26/03/2025 11:34

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I am also baffled by your choice of hounding me over this despite me and other posters clearly describing the issue and what can and does happen in some churches.
FYI you mean discreet

OP posts:
Changedusernameforthis2 · 26/03/2025 11:37

The anti gay sex argument doesn't hold up.

OP posts:
ShillyShallySherbet · 26/03/2025 11:39

I had a good friend who went like this a few years ago. It’s sad but I distanced myself and we’ve now grown apart. She was such a lovely friend though, it’s sad.

Bridezillasista · 26/03/2025 11:40

This reply has been withdrawn

The OP has been identified in real life, so we've agreed to take this down.

StMarie4me · 26/03/2025 11:42

She’s been radicalised, or groomed, into this. This is not true Christianity. It’s an abhorrent bastardisation of it. I doubt there’s anything you can do.

Wilsonthedog · 26/03/2025 11:51

I've a friend who I feel I've lost to Christianity. She went from being an atheist to a very involved Roman Catholic a couple of years ago. I'd say she is quite vulnerable and also has a chronic illness.
She hasn't exactly cut me off, but if we do meet - always, always at my initiation - she spends the whole time talking about church, mass and the annoying (also vulnerable) people who attend her church. She only ever messages me when she wants to rant about something that has made her angry, and then frequently ignores whatever I've replied because she's calmed down by then and no longer needs someone to sound off at.
It's a shame because we've had a really strong friendship since we were little kids. I know she's unhappy, but it's really taking its toll, and I've realised I probably need to back off for a while and hopefully she'll come out of it at some point.

Skye99 · 26/03/2025 12:00

Cyclebabble · 26/03/2025 11:30

Sorry but very many evangelical Christians think that being gay is wrong. As to the idea that its okay as long as you never have a gay relationship, I just cannot follow the logic. Other than it being developed as compromise by the CofE to allow for the very large number of gay priests to live peacefully in an active relationship with their partners. A gay person attending an evangelical Church would be told that a physical gay relationship would be harmful and as a result, their mental health would be at risk. They also could not become the full person they should.

I did say informed Christians (informed about what the Bible says). Not all Christians are as informed as they might be… same as in any other group of people.

I wonder how many evangelical Christians you know compared to me? I have been a Christian for 35 years and have attended four evangelical churches.

As to not following the logic… people can’t help who they are attracted to, but they can help what they do.

SoManyTeeth · 26/03/2025 12:00

SoManyTeeth · 26/03/2025 07:52

Standard abuse/cult tactic — cut people off from any external sources of support, companionship, or differing ideas. Oh, they'll try and gussy it up in fancy language and persuasive justifications, but that's what they're doing. Alongside, probably, showering her with attention, love, promises of endless support and a readymade community, and all the other stuff they do to draw (usually vulnerable) people in. IME there's no easy way to get people out when they're in the honeymoon stage, unfortunately.

I want to clarify my post: I'm not saying that OP's friend's new church necessarily is a cult, any more than I'm saying it's an abusive boyfriend/husband.

I'm saying that this kind of tactic is one of the many types of controlling and manipulative behaviour that is also commonly used both in high-control organisations like cults, and in some types of abusive relationships. (There are a surprising number of parallels between the two — I guess there are only so many ways to efficiently and effectively manipulate and control people's behaviour.)

But I think it's important to acknowledge that controlling, manipulative, abusive behaviour of this type from organised groups doesn't necessarily come from something most of us would generally consider a cult (e.g. new religious movement/weird spiritual stuff/aliens and doomsday and suicides/sex stuff/drug stuff/extreme financial and personal obligations/fringe movements of established religions with heretical beliefs/a charismatic leader etc.). IMO it's good to be able to recognise it for what it is, wherever you see it.

Lots of mainstream (or smaller but generally moderate) religions have subgroups within them that use some of the control techniques often used by cults (or abusive partners), without necessarily having many or any of the other common features of a cult, and without fundamentally diverging from common beliefs of the broader religion. And they can still be dangerous.

I don't think that the people in the church OP describes are necessarily malicious in what they're doing and saying, even if they are dangerous. (The same for many cult members TBH — obviously many truly believe their cult is the answer, at least for a while, so I can't berate them too much.) I think it's likely that the church members who've done this to OP's friend don't even fully recognise the controlling, manipulative nature of their behaviour.

Where I might see a love-bombing (coined by the Moonie cult) campaign, the nature of which has been refined over decades to maximise effectiveness, they might see a genuine expression of their caring, and of their wish to share their "good news".

They reach out to a person, broken or badly struggling, lonely or lost in life, befriend them, invite them warmly, enthusiastically welcome them, take them to meet new people who will all be lovely to them, envelop them in a community with all kinds of activities and social groups, spend lots of time listening attentively to them and demonstrating they care about them and what they think, give them interesting new concepts to learn about, and tell them that they/their life can be fixed and that they need never be alone or uncertain about anything again, because God (in this case) knows everything, has a plan for you, Jesus loves you more than you can imagine and can take on all your burdens for you, whatever. Probably, they really believe the teachings and want to "save" the person, and don't recognise how they're taking advantage of that person and using powerful techniques on them — or of they do, they reframe it as something like finding people who are at the right point in their life to be receptive to the message. There's probably a Bible story they can point to or something, about how people are ripest for a big religious conversion when life has shat on them from a great height and they're utterly wretched and defenceless.

Where some of us might see vulnerability — a predatory church with extreme beliefs pouncing on people at their weakest moments, when they're least able to resist the love-bombing or the allure of being told they'll be understood and cared for and feel like they belong somewhere and have a purpose — maybe the grassroots church members see someone who NEEDS God, right now, a broken soul who can be SAVED etc. etc. And how can there be anything wrong with being welcoming and telling someone they're loved? Assuming they're basically nice people, their desire to be welcoming, and to help those who are suffering, lines up nicely with one of the most effective techniques for indoctrinating someone into a high-control group. Which church leaders may or may not be more conscious of than some of the followers…

And if those existing church members have also been told by their spiritual leaders that new Christians are most at risk from falling back into sin, maybe even that the devil could speak through their friends and family to draw them away from Christ, or that those young in their faith are not yet strong enough to resist those things of the world that can blind you to the true path and so forth, then it's only natural for them to earnestly advise a new Christian not to risk mortally wounding their fragile new faith, not to continue to expose themselves to non-Christian people, non-Christian media, non-Christian anything.

Except that "You shouldn't spend too much time around people not in our group, or they'll lead you astray" is exactly the same thing as cults or abusers not wanting outsiders being able to influence their victims into breaking free. It's just different words. Lead astray, break free, tomayto etc.

These are dangerous, coercive, abusive behaviours, maybe even more dangerous because it's not coming from an obvious cult — a Christian church, even an extremely socially conservative charismatic or evangelical one, usually still has a sort of baseline level of acceptability and respectability in the UK — and also because it's possible that most of the people carrying out the actual interpersonal control techniques don't even realise the manipulation and abuse they're perpetrating.

I raised the similarity with the both cult tactics and abusive relationships, not to dismiss this church as a cult (which it may or may not be, depending on your definition, but nothing in the beliefs OP describes is so incredibly unusual for Christianity that it could be considered fringe), but to highlight the behaviour itself as manipulative abuse — even when it superficially doesn't appear abusive (or we've got so used to it from certain types of organisation we've stopped noticing how weird and controlling it is), and even though it's a church and many people generally think of churches in the UK as mostly benign. (There's a fuck of a lot of churches act like this, though. Not the majority by any means, but there's got to be at least one in every town.)

Changedusernameforthis2 · 26/03/2025 12:03

Skye99 · 26/03/2025 12:00

I did say informed Christians (informed about what the Bible says). Not all Christians are as informed as they might be… same as in any other group of people.

I wonder how many evangelical Christians you know compared to me? I have been a Christian for 35 years and have attended four evangelical churches.

As to not following the logic… people can’t help who they are attracted to, but they can help what they do.

But straight people have the ability to live their life and have sex once married. In this version, gay people must be celibate their whole life

Also it begs the question, why did God make them gay if he doesn't like it?

OP posts:
waltzingparrot · 26/03/2025 12:08

If she's been a good friend, I'd tell her you're sorry you're losing her friendship due to her new beliefs but if she ever wants to get in touch in future, you'll always take her call. Take the high ground.

Cyclebabble · 26/03/2025 12:14

Skye99 · 26/03/2025 12:00

I did say informed Christians (informed about what the Bible says). Not all Christians are as informed as they might be… same as in any other group of people.

I wonder how many evangelical Christians you know compared to me? I have been a Christian for 35 years and have attended four evangelical churches.

As to not following the logic… people can’t help who they are attracted to, but they can help what they do.

Thanks. I wholly agree that views differ across Evangelicals as they do across Christianity as a whole. It is indeed possible to find Churches who adopt a loving approach to gay people and openly welcome them. However, IME there are a large number who are not inclusive and where the preaching would be very judgemental indeed. I must say that telling any person that they cannot have a loving relationship just because it is same sex will cause harm longer term and would never allow that person the full life they should have.

Skye99 · 26/03/2025 12:43

Changedusernameforthis2 · 26/03/2025 12:03

But straight people have the ability to live their life and have sex once married. In this version, gay people must be celibate their whole life

Also it begs the question, why did God make them gay if he doesn't like it?

That’s true, and it’s one of the things that bothered me when I was an agnostic looking into Christianity. It does seem unfair. However, according to the Bible all Christians will be happy for eternity, when they will have ‘no more death, or mourning, or crying, or pain.’ (Revelation 21.4.) Life is short compared to eternity. Everyone who has suffered will be compensated, so to speak.

I can say that my relationship with God has brought me far more happiness and comfort than any human relationship.

The Bible says that God made the world perfect, but it went wrong after human beings decided to turn from relationship with him and go their own way. So now there are things that God allows to happen but didn’t necessarily directly cause to happen, such as tsunamis and illness. He didn’t necessarily decide to create people gay.

MinionKevin · 26/03/2025 12:54

I know evangelists who are perfectly normal about their religion .
I also know some where they have been controlled, love bombed…
DHs cousin goes to a church she has to give a portion of her earnings (and extras) and when she’s not working she should be at a service. She goes 3 times a day for hours at a time to listen to the same thing over and over. She has no life but that.
we know someone in their 40s single and lonely who fell in with a church. Within a year he was married to another congregant, they still seem like strangers to each other.
I don’t think all churches are the same.