Are Europeans 'pathetic European free loaders'?

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WhatsApp chat released today from the US calling Europeans 'pathetic European free-loaders'.

One of our closest allies! What about support from European countries after September 11th?

AIBU to expect more professional language?

We cannot reduce the number of people who are disabled.

Of course you can. Where is your ambition ? Just change what "disabled" means. Bish bosh bash.

For the 5 millionth time on this site - PIP (which is what funds Motability) is not an out of work benefit, it is a disability related entitlement.

so the 1 in 5 cars going to these disabled people is quite an acceptable level to you - it is shaming that this number of the population is disabled when other countries do not have this problem - we are a laughing stock and we deserve it. This not a handout from the bank - this is funded by other peoples hard earned tax paying for it - do you show gratitude for that or just accept it.

As i said (frequently) define "democracy".

And non voters don't "lose" any rights. They just have to accept whatever happens and realise that their silence is acquiescence to whatever should follow.

Where I live, turnout for the local elections was around 30%. So 2 in 3 people are happy with the outcome.

Didn't say that, did I? You can still have your "rights", but if you don't vote then you have no come back on the way the vote went. That is not the same thing as "rights". If you didn't vote on Brexit when you could have, then you shouldn't be whining about the result. That's why they only allow adults to vote - whining and tantrums because they didn't get their own way are for children. FWIIW I voted remain, I respect the fact of the vote, and I also think those who voted to leave are getting exactly what they voted for and deserve. If you want to change things, in democracies there are ways and means of doing so legally.

That's why they only allow adults to vote - whining and tantrums because they didn't get their own way are for children.

Or politicians.

Unfortunately in the case of brexit, the harm of losing their rights fell heavily on many who couldn’t vote, groups already mentioned and those not old enough at the time.

I did say "didn't vote when you could have". And it is still the case that there are always routes to effect change. It is up to people to use them or create them. That is what democracy is supposed to be about. If people abdicate all responsibility for their society - and going out and occasionally voting is the very least responsibility you can take - then what they get is of their own making.

The Brexit vote was not a normal vote. One outcome was relatively benign - do nothing. The other involved one of the biggest constitutional changes the country has ever seen. They were not in any sense "equivalent" no matter what the deluded Brexiteers claim. Which is why non-voters should have been viewed as "happy with the current situation", and not "happy with the result".

This is why it was criminally negligent not to have put safeguards around it. At the very least a supermajority, and ideally a prepared white paper and process for a leave vote to follow.

It was a vote bought with a dud cheque. And every single time Brexiteers rocked up to cash it, it bounced. And is still bouncing.

The bottom line is history shows, if you don't use democracy, you will lose it.

Rights are rights. You said if you didn’t vote then you have no right to push back. But that’s not true - in a democracy anyone has the right to push back against poor policy regardless of whether they voted for it or not. Even those who voted for Brexit have the right to complain.

I think you may have quoted the wrong person.

Well there isn’t a definition of democracy in which anyone lose rights (or the right of response) for not voting.

Equally, voters too have to accept whatever happens.

Exactly so.

@SerendipityJane beautifully put - they should have said - ok here is the proposal after we have done our negotiations , this is what it is going to look like ‘vote on ‘this’
so those who thought we were going to be like Norway would realise we were not, those who thought it was just sticking it to the gvt would realise they really were not and those who thought that somehow meant we retained all of the benefits and non of the downsides realised this wasn’t the case at all . It’s exactly why there wasn’t a second referendum because whilst I think it would have still been quite close I think it would have been 55/45 the other way with some of the lazy arses who don’t vote actually realising it was deadly serious. I cannot see how anyone into democracy could object to this unless it was they thought ‘ooh we’ve sneaked this’ - let’s not allow people to change their mind once they know what it looks like.

one thing people fail to point out too Was the vote was on the main day students have to vacate and move out for the holidays- so an awful lot would have been busy doing other stuff and probably didn’t prioritise the vote either. Glastonbury the next day too ! Not an excuse but I think it didn’t help with student turnout

@Mirabai indeed that’s the case - it’s not a term I use , hence the ‘sic’ - certainly others use it - we cannot just pretend they don’t - May I suggest the poster goes back and look at x and Facebook posts at the time from many Brexiters- some terms are actually much worse and unfortunately many non racists who voted this way for whatever reasons they have need to acknowledge that racism/xenophobia played a huge part in the vote from others. Watch the vox pops at the time from areas such as Lee Anderson’s constituency - i will give you a clue,it’s very rarely about economics or trading aspects-

I have to ask any Americans on this thread, given the revelations by Goldberg (give that man a Pulitzer) about the toddlers in charge of your country, why are you not more scared? He's now released the full conversation so don't bother starting the 'it wasn't classified' 'Goldberg is a failure and loser' BS that Bigly was trying. You've handed your country, and it's nuclear arsenal, to a bunch of tossers who wouldn't even get entry to a bar on a Saturday night here, even with fake ID, they're so obviously Troublesome Kiddies. You should all be very scared indeed.

Yes Europeans have been free loading on the US for defence for years. A nation of 300million has been paying a large part of the European defence bill when Europe is 700million.
Only in recent weeks have European states agreed to start pushing their defence budgets up to the NATO agreed level... until that happens Europeans are still free loading.
(I'm British).

That assumes that the US got nothing in return for it's spending.

By all means, try to retrospectively hypothecate the split. But bear in mind the story of the county that saved £1 million on street lighting and spent an extra £10 million on RTAs.

I suspect the current situation is being driven by the same morons that pushed for Brexit. People who fail to grasp that things change in the future. By which I mean the "clever" push to up European spending on US defence products looks like it will not only be increasing European spending on European defence products, but also a reduction in spending on US defence products into the future. Way to go.

Meanwhile, Trump backtracking (again ?) ?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14533395/Donald-Trump-floats-shock-tariff-backflip.html

I gave some simple facts. You're going on about Brexit and street lighting which are completely unrelated. Using words like "moron" to describe your fellow citizens is not at all nice and symptomatic of all that is wrong in society. Stick to facts please.

This is the bit that I find most disturbing.

They are so YOUNG mentally. They don’t act like adults. It’s like a gang of teenaged boys playing tough. What is with this trend of regression in behaviour and expression and the veneration of adults acting like children.

@Zebedee999 sticking to facts then - this arrangement suited the US for many years as they were obsessed with any country not working to their particular capitalist ideology - be that Russia( who ironically are very capitalist at the top) Cuba, Venezuela- wherever!! Europe in particular targeted as Russia on doorstep- US more than happy to dump their servicemen and security aspects in Britain/Germany etc for many many years- just because it isn’t suiting now , it suited their political ethos for many years

if they wanted to change things what was needed was a grown up discussion with EU, NAT0 etc about US reliance on personnel and hard cash and how that could be changed - god knows there’s enough summits to do it- what isn’t needed is extremely childish ‘diplomacy ‘ and sucking up to Putin to suddenly carve up spoils of his aggressive actions.

700 million?????

@JHound I could have sworn Europe was 350 million

Ok apparently it depends where cut the borders a google search puts it approximately 744m but that includes every European nation which is clearly a stupid comparison (for example that includes Russia.)

The comparison should be the EU or even NATO countries and that’s nowhere near 744m.

Well, that is (slightly less than) the population of Europe...

Of course, that includes Russia (the European country with the largest population) and Turkey (3rd largest, complex relationship with Europe).