PIP assessments not fit for purpose

[notfitforpurpose]

The ONS figures show that 70% of the DWP decisions at tribunal/appeal stages were overturned in favour of the claimant.

This is particularly ominous as this will be the assessment which will be used to decide if a claimant has lcwra in future.

AIBU to think that the whole system is unfit for purpose?

Hello, here I am, on PIP. At work right now.

I would be capable of far more and not claiming the high rate care element (just the standard rate) if the NHS wasn't in its death throes, and various conditions had been treated in a timely fashion.

They weren't, the damage is now permanent. The only way I'll not qualify for max. PIP now is by dying.

If we want fewer claimants, we need a functioning health care system that treats people properly, and promptly.

We also need to alter the toxic 'work is more important than LIFE' attitude prevalent in the UK - it's all very well trying to bang the 'everyone can do something productive' message (as incorrect as it is) but thats pissing in the wind when employing disabled people is often expensive, time consuming, unproductive and far harder than simply employing someone without disabling conditions.

Basic Universal Income fixes all the problems - everyone paid enough to live on. Those with disabilities get a smidgen more to reflect the fact that being disabled costs more.

We save a TON of money in not employing shitloads of people and government agencies trying to force people who don't want to work, can't work, are thoroughly unsuited to work, into jobs they don't want or cannot do.

Then anyone wanting more than this has to work - and this then changes the field for employers. They have to attract employees. They have to make working for them desirable, which means accessible, and flexible, with decent pay and proper benefits,time off etc etc.

People would generally work less, but more people would work. Because people would work within their capacity, not be forced to work beyond it, fewer people would be off sick!

You can work with PIP and even lwcra (which i find a bit odd but still). Some claimants do work. PIP is not for those who can't work.

Yep, I am on LWCRA (i don't understand, I don't even understand what all the fucking letters stand for).

No limit on the hours I can work doing what I do. Presumably if I suddenly took up landscape gardening or professional tobogganing, they'd have an issue with that.

Undoubtedly somewhere I am a statistic as being on LWCRA and I bet it ISN'T noted that I actually work!

You can work on LWCRA. I've done it myself, when I was capable.

All this nonsense about how you can't start work because it means messing up your benefits just isn't true. I worked when I could, didn't when I couldn't. It didn't affect my claim in the slightest.

If I wanted help with anything, like costs or advice, it has always been available.

I don't work now because I physically can't do it anymore. I might have been able to stay on if there had been care available promptly through the NHS, but that ship has long sailed.

I agree with PP about not addressing the massive core issue, which is NHS care at / beyond point of collapse, leading to worsening and lengthening of preventative long-term/chronic ill health.

But also - I sometimes help people with PIP applications (I run a food bank, and people sometimes come in stressed and needing support with all sorts). I have a 100% success rate with applications, always on the paper assessment rather than a video call etc, and I fully believe that that's down to being an ex-lawyer and being able to argue a case to a set criteria, identify and provide evidence etc - rather than being down to the intrinsic strength of the applicant's claim. I think the system is very flawed for effectively advantaging people who are in my position, rather than making it as simple as possible for all applicants to get in front of a person who can make a qualified and fair assessment. It must skew things massively.

I went to a face to face assessment for universal credit to see if I was entitled to the not fit for work element, I struggled hugely and was visibly unwell and then I wet myself in front of the assessor who was young and male and I was mortified ( only in my forties ) and I was deemed fit for work with no mention of the above.

The staff at the assessment centre on the other hand were fantastic and helped me get cleaned up and then booked and paid for a taxi home which was a considerable distance.

Then I applied for PIP which everyone knows is notoriously hard to get. Got highest rates on both without a shred of medical evidence. My assessment was seemingly enough and I don’t understand how I can be deemed ok for one and not the other. I am falling apart.

Yep, I am on LWCRA (i don't understand, I don't even understand what all the fucking letters stand for).

LCWRA means Limited Capability for work and Work Related Activities.

LCW means Limited Capability for Work.

Nearly a quarter of the population is disabled? That seems absolutely astonishing

Stats are here if you are interested:

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/family-resources-survey-financial-year-2022-to-2023/family-resources-survey-financial-year-2022-to-2023

and here

commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7540/#:~:text=How%20many%20people%20in%20the,459%2C000%20from%20the%20year%20before.

Thanks - it is shocking though - surely it shows we need to invest in better treatment for people.

Got highest rates on both without a shred of medical evidence.

They will have accessed your GP and health records. Please don't spread misinformation.

Hi, it wasn’t my intention to spread misinformation so I apologise if that is the case.
i honestly did not know that they would’ve done this, it makes sense that they would but what happened with me was that I had called the pip number for a form several times and just never sent it back, was too overwhelming and then I missed the deadline.

The last time I did it I did the same but I got a message saying that I would be having a telephone assessment and that’s what happened, I had not sent the form back with any information about me whatsoever so I wasn’t expecting to be awarded it based just on my telephone assessment but I was and it was very quick ( under 14 days ) and my assessment was very thorough and lasted just over 2 hours instead of the usual which is an hour. Just my experience of it.

I’d love to not have to claim PIP. I’d also love for my GP to have a solution to my mental health problems. I’m currently undergoing EMDR therapy for PTSD related to CSA. I spoke to my GP on Friday under my therapists advice as my antidepressants are not helping me. My GP said she doesn’t know what to do for me. That was it. No referral to anyone who might know what to do. No suggestions of anything to try. She’s just given up. I’m awaiting an ASD assessment and apparently then things will “make sense”. It might help me to understand why I feel like I do but it’s not going to make me feel any better. I tried everything they’ve asked of me and more.

They probably sent a form to your GP to fill in, they have guidance to help those they consider vulnerable. I had it with ESA.

"I actually know several kids who have transferered to PIP whose rates have gone up because the criteria is different"

Yes young people with a severe learning disability often do better with PIP than DLA because the all night waking and severe challenging behaviour are no longer needed to get the highest rates.

There is another recent thread with this exact same title.

Or are we going round again?

PIP assessments are often utter bollocks. I work in welfare rights and do in excess of 50 PIP applications a year.

Around half of them are successful, the other half go to mandatory reconsiderations and around 50% of those go to appeal.

When I see the DWP's "bundle", the assessor's report is the first thing I look at. I see the same phrases repeated over and over again. They're obviously a copy and paste job. I've seen several where the applicant appears to have changed sex and back again more than once during the assessment, many where the assessor "observed" something when the assessment was done over the phone, a classic where the client was able to walk in to the assessor's office without using any aids, when they only had one leg and were on crutches, and all sorts of other complete fiction.

The DWP know that the reports are rubbish. It's not uncommon for them to contact the client and offer them an award of PIP in the first few weeks after an appeal has gone in, and they quite often do it very close to the appeal, the evening before in one memorable instance.

My team's success rate at appeals is almost 100% (a former colleague lost one once, around 5 years ago). If the reports weren't rubbish, that wouldn't be possible.

I recently helped someone who lost their PIP at a review. Because we didn't do the application or the review form, we had no idea what they had had points for and they were technically out of time to challenge it, so we helped them make a new application. A few weeks after the DWP got the new form, someone phoned the client and asked them why they were reapplying. They explained, the DWP bod overturned the review decision, increased the daily living amount from standard to enhanced, and backdated it to the date the previous award ended.

The system is completely corrupt imo. I think it's a numbers game: they know that a lot of people won't have the will and/or ability to go through the appeal process and that it's worth the extra hassle of MRs and appeals because it saves money in the long run.

I think you are using the 70% figure very misleadingly. That is the number that go all the way to Tribunal. Yes, it is an unacceptably high level and shows that the systems at MR and appeal are not working properly, I’ll agree with that. BUT only 6% of PIP claims go to the tribunal, and a much lower proportion are overturned at earlier levels. By the ONS statistics only 11% of PIP claims are overturned (5% at MR and 6% at appeal). So 89% are correct first time.

Well that is strange. Because a few days ago,I read the complete opposite! It was along the lines of 8 out of 10 claimants lose a tribunal decision. The DWP just trying to put people off going to tribunal? Surely they wouldn't be so unethical and underhand?!

Out of interest, do they go on what you put on the form or do they actually see people in person?

Same with any sanction they make it hard in the hope you give up. Moneysaving thing.

I've said on numerous threads that if the government genuinely want to save money on disability benefits then they'd make a push on getting decisions right first time.

The cost of appeals must be absolutely massive.

My DD (narcoleptic, has cataplexy multiple times a day, amongst other conditions) waited a year for an appeal in 2023. The building she went to for it had 15/16 rooms all doing various appeals. Every room had an independent lawyer and doctor, some also had a welfare rights advisor. My DD didn't even get in the room - they had looked at her case and she should have been phoned the day before to be told she didn't need to come.

She was given her award despite adding no additional evidence or reports, and not even answering a single question. The reports from her consultant, and more so her clinical support nurse, her pain clinic and her community support worker were enough for the panel. They should have been enough for the original Decision Maker.

The cost of successful appeals is where the claimant adds no extra evidence is a figure that should be public - I'd put good money on it being massive. And is where any cost savings should start!

Same as the stats they currently use for asylum appeals. More than 95% are overturned, but 95% of the less than 5% who have reached appeal. Something like that anyway. A massive figure from a very, very low base. That's the trouble with statistics. They can very easily be cherry picked to 'prove' whatever someone's agenda is.

I’ve applied twice and got 0 points at assessment and MR. I have multiple conditions and my mental health deteriorated and I just didn’t have the fight in me to take them to tribunal. I became very unwell after the second MR (not purely because of it but it didn’t help). I suspect that’s true for many people who apply.

I agree that the bus being broken makes it so much worse. And the sheer quantity of paperwork and bureaucracy is dragging everybody down.

At the moment I'm in the midst of a student finance/disabled student allowance application, 3 dla/pip applications/reviews and an ehcp that the LA have fought us every step of the way with.

I've also got one child having major surgery next week and another whose symptoms are getting worse thanks to waiting lists and Camhs refusing to see him.

I'm dyslexic and really struggle with forms.

I seem to spend hours chasing up appointments which involve press 1 for surgery, press 3 for orthopaedic etc but then when you finally get to speak to a human they say they don't know and it's not their department.

I've got in-laws who think I'm being pathetic.

Last but not least my recycling didn't get emptied yesterday and I don't have the time or the headspace to get it sorted.

I just want to sit and do nothing but sleep and watch repeats of Waterloo road for at least a week.