To ask how to teach boys how to respect women?

[cadburyegg]

There are lots of messages in the media atm and for good reason.

Educate your sons.
Teach boys to respect women. To accept rejection. To value women’s opinions.
Lift boys up in healthy ways.
Help your boys do better.

i 100% agree with this. I have 2 boys and I am just not sure how I can do my part. How do we change the narrative? What do I tell them? How do I tell them? I guess I’m looking for practical, real life advice.

Your relationship is his blueprint. You can talk as much as you like but what is he being modeled? It's why it's important for boys to have men in their lives who can show them what a decent human being is.

It requires a lot of thought. We have one boy and one girl. We try to not highlight differences between sexes. We say boys can like pink, some girls like dinosaurs etc... We give them equal chores. I try really hard to not say things like " boys are stinky" even as a joke. I have to bite my lip to not say "men..." when my husband falls short of my high standards again 😅 . My husband shares chores with me but a lot of it comes down to me asking him, so that needs to change.

Children learn what they see - if they have good male role models in their lives that treat women with respect, that is the behaviour they emulate. If the father is absent, uncles, grandparents, family friends, teachers, youth workers, sports coaches can play a part in shaping young men into responsible respectful adults.

There’s only 4 years, but I notice a marked difference between influences my 18 year old had and my 14 year old. The 23 year old (nearly 24) was different again.

The friendship groups they have make a difference as well. There’s only one high school here. Maybe my others were luckier with their peers, but society is not getting better. Just look at the types of people our world leaders are.

We all have choices to make I think if I was in that scenario I’d be looking at where else you could live. If you think they’ll be consequences later than the line for your actions now you’ve got a nip in an act haven’t you?

My son (25) is supremely alpha but he’s more feminist than me! His gf is his world, he sees domestic work as equally his responsibility and he treats family life as very important (both us and his gf’s parents). He hates lechy pervy behaviour and won’t hesitate to call it out in other blokes if he’s around it.

What made the difference imo:

• engaged hands-on dad who he saw pulling his weight domestically.
• Quality 1 on 1 time with both dad (wild camping etc) and mum (clothes shopping usually!)
• strict boundaries growing up about behaviour and respect, particularly toward his sisters.
• allowing him freely to experiment as a child with all of his sisters’ dolls, make up, dressing up. He regularly had pink painted toe nails at swimming even though he was a fairly typical scruffy Minecraft obsessed year 6 boy. No big deal.
• as a family we discuss and debate all the heavy topics. No judgement or embarrassment.
• we believe in living with integrity, empathy and honesty so that’s what we’ve always role modelled.

Role models are so important. If you can’t see it, you can’t be it.

All of my sons have had all of this. My 23 and 18 year old are the same. The 14 year old, not so much.

ETA he even has his older brothers as role models.

Because that’s so easy to do and were made of money? Finding new jobs will be no problem, then?

I think as parents we can do a lot of the things that are talked about on here - model appropriate ebehaviour, encourage good male role models, talk about the issues and encourage the boys to see things from other perspectives. All of that is crucial. And I think it starts early - DS has always been tall and strong for his age. We started talking about "consent" when he was 2. Obviously not sex, the point was that if he was playing and someone was saying STOP, I needed him to understand that meant STOP. It served him well and possibly one of my proudest moments was when one of the mums of a girl at school sought me out once to tell me that her DD told her they all liked it when DS was around becuase he would tell the other boys to stop teasing them or whatever. He was about 9 at the time.

I've also directly challenged DS and his friends when they make comments or say things that are clearly innocently meant, but are inappropriate. eg the way they refer to male and female teachers is often slightly different and I'm quick to ask them why.

But I think we also have to challenge the wider society stuff. I am very much constantly on the edge of being "that parent" at school and clubs. I'm the one who very very firmly told the teacher that the next time "Johnny" touched DD's face without her permission, notwithstanding that the teacher had told him not to, that I had given her full permission to scream and push him off her (she told me that she couldn't do it because she'd get in trouble and I'd reassured her that I wouldn't stand for that). I'm the one who emailed the school to ask why the boys football club was using the lovely fancy new facilities but the girls football club was just on the old ratty playground and I'm also the one who contacted the school to highliight my concerns abotu the fact that DD and a few other girls had chosen to stop playing football because the boys were calling them names.

I am the parent who points out to my children that it is a bit disturbing that the senior leadership team at DS' high school are all men and in the feedback requested from the school, I mention this. Every time. When Ds started at the school I noticed it was always "head boy and head girl" and boy first every time. I may have made a cpmment on this and I'm sure I was not the only one becuase I have noticed that has shifted over the last year or two.

I actively sought out women to vote for when nominations for school governors came up.

Such a good point @Thisissuss about reading. It's so important to learn empathy.

I really agree @CatsMagic respecting differences between the sexes is part of it. I think there is an element of misguided feminism, an idea that if a woman is not earning equal she is lesser. It only reinforces the idea that women's role as carers is worthless. Even when both parents are equal the fact is women provide more care for children because they are usually better at it and children seek it. This should be something to be proud of instead of dismissing it. I don't mean an unfair division of labour in the house in general, but the caring element.

Yes, I also see this. I don't really understand why, but the trend is very worrying.

And you're 'that parent' because others aren’t, otherwise you wouldn’t stand out.

How do we get to a society where everyone is 'that parent' and those who have toxic traits are the ones that stand out?

Things that used to be said and happen behind closed doors not only happen openly now, but are online and aimed directly at our children.

@DontKnowAnythingAnymore I have no idea. And you're right. At best, other parents sort of titter nervously when I'm standing up or sidle up to me afterwards to tell me they agree. Other times, if I express concern or dissatisfaction I'm told to let it go and it's just a small issue, or the implication is that I'm making a big deal over nothing.

I'm not sure which is worse: The ones who agree but are too scared to say anything or the ones that don't agree and are intrinsically part of the problem.

I grew up with parents who weren't scared to say what they thought or to insist on things that they thought were right. It caused me some embarassment as a teenager. But in retrospect, I am extremely extremely grateful for those role models.

Haven’t read the whole thread but yes! I have two ‘good’ girls and then an extroverted boy - I’m so surprised by what doesn’t meet the threshold for school to inform me about. I have really high standards for my children in terms of behaviour but I feel like my son is excused a lot by school as he’s a boy…

On being a SAHM to two boys, I emphisise that the household needs domestic work doing, and it needs money coming in. Both are important but different households share them differently. DSs have their chores- if they don't do them, that impacts the household (e.g. if they don't do the diswasher, the rest of the kitchen can't be cleaned and that's bad for all of us.)

DS1 remembers me working professionally. DS2 was a bit younger and has a shorter memory. They do respect my knowledge and skills. Mine are different to DH's but they're complimentary.

The advantage of having been a SAHM is spending the time with them to have influence on their foundations. Right from being 4-5 years old, it's so easy for them to be exposed to sexism, especially from children from household with rigid gender divides, and it was more time at home away from those influences. They've had time to have hobbies/ sports. Mine are both into running which has a healthy, supportive culture. Parkrun has got them into volunteering, and the wider community of sport. When DH and I were both working long hours with no family suppport and reliant on wrap around care (which DS hated), it was harder to add value to the DCs lives.

I can't say for certain, but I don't think I have different expectations of sons to if I had daughters. I've volunteered in Guiding and Scouting and the values in those environments aren't different (DSs used to tag along with me when they were young so a female based environment doing cool stuff was normal to them). My expectations are based on their age, capability and being a decent functional human. They also haven't been pigeon-holed into gender sterotypes e.g. boys have short hair and play football and can't paint their nails funky colours. They've had space to be themselves and develop their own likes.

We're in the first half of secondary school. It's a long time before I can be complacent about any outcomes, but the foundations seem to be keeping them on.a decent course so far...

Model the behaviour you’d like to see. My SIL has huge issues around self esteem and believes she is stupid 😔 sadly my nephew now believes women are not intellectually capable and he’s only 9! We went on a visit to a science event recently and he asked a question which I answered correctly and he turned to my DH to confirm because “girls don’t really know things.” DH put him right straight away! But it’s sad that he believes this so young. I’d say if women respect themselves and insist the men in their lives do too, then that’s what the boys in their lives will hopefully see and replicate.

Also active hobbies, minimal screen time and no devices in bedrooms alone.

We have no spare money, food & bills, petrol, thats it but its a choice I made.

We all make choices.

My boys were raised well, we always had a close relationship.
Secondary school was sadly a game changer. Don’t underestimate how much your sons are influenced by their friends, and at secondary you have very little say over who they’re friends with. School is also a place where they can learn to not respect boundaries, partly because porn and sexual assault is so normal and dismissed, but also because the powers teachers had to manage disrespect and low level bad behaviour have been stripped away, and with a lack of special schools their time is often spent managing children who should not be in a classroom with 30 other children and no TA.

This whole situation is part of a perfect storm, it’s all connected.

Boys turn to the likes of Andrew Tate in the absence of influential, decent men.
People turn to the right in the absence of a left that doesn’t insult and sneer at societal issues.
It’s all part of the same lack of decent men who will balance their lives and needs with the needs of women.

My daughters see equality. Example is their Dad attends the plays, never missed a school event. He cooks, cleans and inputs into the family time. We equally have ‘hobbie time’ he goes to the gym, rides his bike and is this weekend meeting his friends but not at the impact of what our children needs are. I get the same back, I can go away with my friends without a worry as he is capable of being home without me. I don’t use the word babysitting he is as equal & capable as I am as a parent.

As a family we don’t control each other, we trust one another and are very open in conversation.

It needs to be both ways it’s not just about teaching our sons it’s about teaching our daughters too - expect more, be respected and be confident in your self.

You’ve said your son’s father is fairly useless. Don’t let your son hear this (he may see it). He may see your words as being degrading on his father and males in general. Hard I know!

Well that’s my point.

caring roles aren’t valued. The man has the big job to provide for his family while the little woman is at home washing a few clothes.

my observation is many men are “respectful and value her contribution”, right up until divorce when it’s “my money”, I paid for you to stay at home, I earned so you didn’t need to work etc.

boys see their dads going out to work and the conversations around careers and “what does your dad do”, with social standing being around the better job and earning power. It doesn’t matter whether dad values domestic work, society doesn’t and no boy ever aspires to be a sahd-they all assume they will earn more than a female partner anyway. And that also fits into toxic masculinity where a lot of men see a higher earning woman reflecting badly on their male ability to provide.

my dd went for a careers lecture recently. She came home fuming because all the advisor talked about was “what does your dad do”. Not once did she ask about what the mums did or talk about female earning ability.

i mean, just look at the thread on “would you let your daughter learn a trade” thread. Barely a couple of pages in and someone is saying no, because it doesn’t have the flexibility to fit in with future husband and kids. How many boys consider whether their future careers will fit around a family?

every time I see a post here about yet another woman giving up work I wonder why there’s never a conversation around the man giving up, or going part time, or even both going pt to share the burden. No, kids and home are still definitely a woman’s world and is less value, and boys know this.

Thank you for saying this.

If I just had two boys, I might be breezily saying what everyone is saying on this thread thinking it was that straightforward.

In spite of my sons all getting the same and having some amazing male role models, my youngest cares more about what his friends are doing and saying. And there are many other bad role models out there.

I am very worried.

You role model the behaviour. This goes both ways your partner and you- he treats you with respect and kindness and if he doesn't you need to make sure you keep your boundaries. That doesn't mean fighting in front of your children, which is damaging but showing them the expectation of how you deserve to be treated. This is about matter concerning mental load, consent etc. and other gender gaps, not being 'nice' to girls and giving flowers and 'treating like a princess' because that is not equality. This also goes for other male-female relationships in their life, but is most important in mother-father dynamic. If you witness inequality outside the house call it out, especially if they notice it... "Hmm that didn't look like a kind way to treat someone, I wonder why they did that" is a good way to open up a dialogue. Even simple common things are easy to brush of in the moment but as a PP said little things like 'girls are bossy' are easy to address. I would engage in femanism (podcasts, forums, books, anything really) as the more you own eyes open to inequalities the more you will naturally incline to address it.

Toxic masculinity culture lends itself to miysogny and is almost like the counterpart of above. This a another huge thing you can do now. Like above, engage in the discourse and make sure your boys feel safe to 'be a boy' however that looks feels right for them. This culture is growing in prevalence in our society, it is so insidious and hurts everyone.

Be aware that miysogny is so prevalent it can feel like swimming upstream, but it is so so important to do.

Because unfortunately most families do what makes most economic sense.

DH had worked P/T due to studies many years ago and the reality was that he ended up doing 95% of his job on 80% pay. His salary was over double mine.

He used his niche skill set and ended up in a well paid, STEM career. At that time he was earning over double what I could earn by teaching on similar hours. The cost of him earning well is travel and some unpredictability. Something had to give because the pair of us working 100+ hours a week without support was not sustainable for our family. So it was my job.

In the absence of affordable, autism-friendly childcare, stepping back from my career was the most pragmatic move.

The shift from this needs to be better access to shared parental leave (when I hear families doing this I know which company the dad works for) and shifts in employment structure and salaries.

Losing £££,£££ over the years by putting my career first over his would only have penalised us and not changed the world.

However when I was working, if he was in the office, he was first contact for ill children as he was more flexible for that. Not much help if he was hundreds of miles away or in another country though.

If I go back to working 50+ hours a week as I was, that's a hell of a lot more unmonitored time for my teenage son on the internet...
I could get a less demanding job... for "pin money"... but that's not helping the feminist/ healthy mascilinity cause much either.

Basically I cocked up my life choices by not being born to parents of optimal demographic for free childcare and not having the interest and talent to get paid well in the STEM sector 🤷‍♀️

@Brunocatmon your earlier post resonated with me. DS2 exhibits some of his dads traits and I find it incredibly triggering. Because I won't allow him to treat me the same way, it causes conflict.
I have DDs as well, they have a good understanding of what they can and can't accept. I hope it's partly because I don't back down as I did with their dad to keep the peace.

I'd like to think if we carry on standing up for ourselves, taking up space and making noise change will come. The older I get, the more despondent I get because women before us have not succeeded and we're here, no better off.

We no longer have the same influence over our children, and no control over what influences them. It's terrifying.

I should have said that they are coming round as they get older, and we once again have the relationship formed when they were younger.

I get fed up of people assuming that this is all down to parenting, when it’s well know that teenagers of all walks of life are susceptible to influence no matter how they were brought up in those formative years. It’s a bit like smug parents of babies who sleep through the night from an early age and take all the credit! I’ve seen plenty of really good parents “lose” their children in teenage years. It’s not always something you can avoid.