DS works on a 15 hour min contract at Coffee shop- how available does he need to be every weekend ?

[Munichfam5]

DS has been working at a medium coffee shop chain for a month , 15 hour min contract
we have a big family wedding on 25-27 April in London and so he has requested this time off

his boss has said he can’t have it as other people have requested it off and so he needs to sort out swaps with other staff members

But DS he hasn’t even has his schedule for that week yet and he doesn’t know all the staff properly yet

How demanding Can a coffee shop be when DS is on a 15 hour per week contract ?

TIA

When he accepted the job he should have told them about any annual leave he needs off. They have to allow it. I don't think it's fair they have a hold over his life, for the sake of a 15 hour contract! I bet these hours are allocated weekly too! He can't always be flexible. He needs to explain that his family are taking him to a wedding, he doesn't have a choice and see what they say. Be prepared for him to be let go, he may need to look for another job after the wedding.

It’s blunt but I’d say it’s helpful and kind in the ‘radical candour’ mode.

My dd has this kind of contract, (though minimum is less than 15 hours 😫). She has to book off in advance every day she doesn't want to work, or otherwise swap shifts. She never knows her hours till a few days before the working week starts - yes, it's rubbish, but she's young and fancy free and has a side hustle, so it works for her.

Fairly normal now in retail etc for staff to be told which shifts they are expected to work a couple of weeks in advance. Where I work it is called a "flexi contract" (flexible for the employer only!)
Is it a chain? They should have asked him in the interview if he had any holidays planned.

The idea behind zero hour contracts is you can decline any shifts you don’t like, surely? Honestly in this instance he has said he can’t work it . I’d just start job hunting there are loads of hospitality jobs around get another with more fixed hours.

Yeah that's the theory
In reality the system can be and open is abused so that if you're not available whenever they want, you're denied further shifts, given the shit shifts etc.

Whenever people are desperate for an income, and there's an endless supply of available labour, there's a power imbalance

This isn't a zero hours contract though. It is a 15 hour contract with no set schedule. If the rota says he is to do his hours on a day he doesn't want to he either needs to use holiday which he can't as others already have the day booked off or swap the shift with someone or not turn up to work which will be a disciplinary issue or call in sick but that will not go down well given 1. It's a lie and 2. It's an obvious lie.

Not sure anyone would believe an adult man didn't have a choice as his family are taking him to a wedding. Did you miss the bit where he is a graduate so at least 20 years old.

My first job was 8hrs contract (0hrs hadn't come in then). I said at the interview that I couldn't do the xth August as it was A-level results day. I reminded in advance of the roster being drawn up that I couldn't do that day. I was still put down and had to swap. On the morning of that day, I was still phoned up and asked to come in. There was nothing else special about the day; the other casual staff were 16 and not collecting results.

Sometimes all reasonable notice still doesn't sink in. Mentioning at interview might not have averted the problem.

I'd be wondering what the jobs market was like in the area...

You can ask not to work on particular days in general e.g. every Tuesday if you have college/ another job. Then you are never put on the rota for that day.

Has he passed a probationary period? That gives you more rights. If not, and he just refuses to work that weekend, they may just sack him as there are likely to be plenty of other candidates wanting a job.

DS needs to ask the manager to tell him who is around so he can ask re swapping shifts. Or DS can tell the manager that he'd be prepared to work every other weekend/crap shift to not be rota'd that weekend. If DD can work Easter then he can offer that to anyone who is on the rota as an extra shift

Well this is how hospitality works, they need enough staff to meet customer demand.
Weekends and public holidays are the busiest times and if people have already been granted time off then to give someone else time off affects the service levels - most people using the service aren't going to be accepting of that.
He should have given the dates at interview and then he'd have them off.

When you go to this wedding, or stay in the hotel are you going to be accepting of poorer service if there's not enough staff for the same reason? Or are you going to feel that as a paying customer it shouldn't be happening?

It's always ok for other people to be treated like that, so we get the service we want, it's only when it affects us or someone we love that it becomes a problem.

It is what it is, he works or he risks not having the job. That's how hospitality works because that's what people expect from the industry.

these coffee shops are notoriously bad at planning, changing schedules etc. Really poor. My DD had a 24 hour a week contract with Costa, she ended up not being able to make any plans as the rota was often changed at the last minute. She left as she effectively had to be available all the time (7days a week), and they got stroppy if she said she couldn’t. It’s no wonder there is a continual stream of people leaving and then having to retrain staff. She had to be really flexible for them and they were not at all flexible to her. Very demoralising.

I get that employers need to have cover and that weekends are more difficult for this, however workers shouldn’t be beholden to an employer. A month’s notice seems reasonable. He may get less hours and the danger is that he gets no hours in the future if his employer wants to go that way, but for a booked family wedding I would risk that.

It will help if he can cover a few people first when they need swaps, or help the boss out a few times. Then if he can't find a swap talk to the boss the week before by which time he will hopefully be friendly with them all.

To be fair, this is an important lesson for the big real world. He's requested holidays but left it a bit late and people are already booked. What would you do as an adult human in your proper job if this had happened to you? You presumably wouldn't just go awol for a week off as it would affect your job prospects. He needs to find colleagues that will swap with him and he works during the week or not go. That's really his only option unless he hands his notice in to leave now.

This is the key…he should have told them at that point he had pre-booked holiday. As he didn’t, normal rules apply and unfortunately if others have already booked it he won’t be able to have it

My DD worked for a large supermarket for a few months on leaving university. She had regular changes to her shifts. If you needed a shift change for e.g. a wedding the first thing you did was find a colleague to swap. You also flagged up any 'holiday' at interview. Unfortunately 'the world of work' doesn't work around you. Ever thought he might actually not want to go to the wedding?

It always amazes me on mymsnet how deferential people are to shit bosses in mun wage jobs. They aren't gods. If you cant fibd anyone to swap with (ask people hes on shift with surely) then just tell him you aren't going to be there, up to him what he does with that information. If he decides not to offer any more shifts ds can vote with his feet. I learned early on in my working life that you have to stand up for yourself. I started off very people pleasery but realised that just meant I got the shit jobs where more assertive types got the plum ones.

Bit depressed that a graduate can only get 15 hours in a coffee shop. Is this what the job market is like now?

5 weeks' notice is loads! If the issue is absolutely everyone else is already booked off then obviously the swap suggestion isn't going to work. Either the place is short staffed and could do with some more people on the books anyway, or the guy is lying

I don’t know the answers to this. But if my 21y graduate daughter asked for advice about the legalities of an employment situation, I would be more than happy to ask around my peers and others to see if they had advice.

People are so weird on MN about kids once they turn 18! Kids can be young adults and still turn to you for advice. I have zero issue with that if they are getting on with their lives independently otherwise.

I might ask my husband or friends for advice on a particular situation. And they might ask me. We are in our fifties. Is that allowed?!

Unfortunately the manager has offered a compromise, swap shifts. There’s still time to do this as he gets to know people better. If he can’t swap he’ll have to decide between the job and the wedding.

How far in advance do they do the rotas?

And he should have had some agreement on what days and hours he could do when he started the job but if he didn’t or said he was available any days then yes he should be accepting shifts any days and times

It's a 15 hour flexible contract by the sounds of it. Flexibility works both ways and if they aren't preparing their rotas in good time, then they have to accept that people might make other plans.

I would tell them in writing asap (keep a record) that I was not available on those dates. It's not annual leave, they have the rest of the week they can rota him on. I would then keep a copy of the rota when it comes out, and if needed raise a grievance.
I would also look for another job.

if my DC asked me about this I would be telling them:
-that whilst they should have told them when they started about needing the time off any decent employer would be understanding and try and help
-that they need to exhaust other options such as shift swap
-that there is no way they should miss a family wedding for a 15 hour zero contract job.

I would also advise them to immediately start looking for another job/retraining and to tell their boss that they have tried to sort but unfortunately it’s not been possible and it they can’t accommodate then they will be leaving. I would do this giving the minimum amount of notice.

Teaching our young people to negotiate these situations is important, teaching them there are always other options is important. You are effectively ‘brain storming’ with them not wiping their bum as other posters have suggested.

The key is to have options, be constantly trying to improve and develop. The employer/employee relationship needs to change back to one where we worked together, zero hours makes it very one sided and employees aren’t valued. The weekend shift situation would be solved quickly by paying slightly more for weekend work because, despite what everyone says, weekends are precious.