So what did the Adolescence psychologist’s report state?

[sideeyes]

I have been thinking about this for a few days. What do you think?

I think from some of the comments here that lots of subtext was not understood by some people.

What an unlucky girl she must have been.

This lad punches the fuck out of her 7 times and leaves her lying prone on the ground. Then someone else (who manages to evade CCTV capture) comes along and kills her by stabbing her 7 times whilst she's laying there.

On another note - the prison officer. That was just a by product of one take real time filming. People do make small talk and are irritants to others. Anyone calling him an incel might want to look the word up...

I really disagree with this.

Even my husband said he was creepy within the first few seconds. The problem is that his behaviour is so common that we often see it as normal, but I think Erin Doherty really did show the impact he had on her character.

At first he was being mildly annoying, then it rapidly became a bit snarky and passive aggressive ("if anything I say or do affects your assessment" - that wasn't said in a helpful way, but it came across as the same kind of self-pitying snark that men attracted to the Manosphere use).

Later, he's mansplaining body language to her, and he physically shifts when she ignores him so that he's not behind her, but is in between her and the door. She has to acknowledge him in order to get out of the room. Then she attempts to brush him off and placates him with smiles and multiple "thank yous".

How likely is it that a man would genuinely smile at and thank a man that crept up behind him, talked incessantly when he was working, blocked his way to the door, and was very much in his physical space? Women do it day in, day out, because we've been conditioned to appease in order to minimise risk from men.

He was a perfect example of a creepy man that women don't want near them that sees himself as a "nice guy" and her as a "stuck up bitch" for not entertaining him.

What?!

The programme wasn't a 'whodunnit'. The purpose of it was to explore what would lead to a teenage boy from a seemingly normal family killing a teenage girl.

The fact Jamie did it wasn't even in question.

Anyway, I’m off to work now, carry on getting your little knickers in a twist about this

I think this comment tells us everything we need to know about @YourElatedLimeShark

Jamie kept repeating that Katie was 'flat'. But that was OK for him. Even though she was flat.

Textbook negging.

And then he was unhappy because even she, despite being second rate, ie flat, didn't want to go out with him and that made him even more unhappy about himself. He just could not accept himself and needed someone to tell him he was liked and he was accepted.

I thought his father loved him, but I don't think he liked him.

And then even the flat Katie rejected him and he snapped.

Do you think the prison officer would have behaved the same and would have had the same conversation with an older, male psychologist then?

I was thinking about him being caught up in incel culture - we don't really know that, do we, the only direct reference came from the comment from his victim. Katie was also aware of this whole dangerous nonsense or wouldn't have used it to retaliate to him with the emojis. Insecurity about how he looks, insecurity about not being a macho boy, rejection from her turning him down, being mocked online - add in a rage he didn't know how to or didn't want to control.
I think my point is that he didn't have to be deep into online incel culture for this all to have happened. Which is even scarier as a parent.

Yes. Stephen Graham has been quite clear what this was about and what inspired him
there is no need to invent crazy alternative stories. It's not Line of Duty.

He was certainly creepy but not necessarily an incel.

a) possibly. Don't recall any of it being sexist or misogynistic just a bit irritating
b) What do you think an incel is??

I say this with genuine sympathy and concern for you.

Get professional help.

If you are still desperate to justify that position, in spite of all of the (official) evidence to the contrary, then your attitude is a major part of the problem being described in the show.

He does reference that he's been on the "truth groups" (basically Red Pill type sites that have found the "truth" of female sexuality), so he mentioned it too.

He says he didn't like it but then immediately follows with "but he believes the 80:20 rule is true" so obviously the ideology got under his skin.

Totally agree that they don't need to be "deep" into it for it to be a problem though, which is terrifying. It's so insidious.

What he says and does (blaming the fact he can't get girls on the fact "he's ugly" rather than maybe thinking it's related to anything else, talking about trying to pursue a girl when she's "weak", the fact he's basically using PUA techniques and negging the psychologist all the way through the interview) is all incredibly typical of the manosphere so he's obviously spent a lot more time on those sites than he admits, or realises.

I honestly think this is projecting but you may have read it differently from me - I didn't really focus on him. I think he was just excited to be involved in a famous case. We didn't see him with the male psychologist so we can't know. I thought the body language thing was him just trying to prove he knew stuff. I have met loads of people like him, male and female -a bit like the female teacher in episode 2 : an irritating background chatterer while people with 'real jobs' get on (which was something that annoyed me actually). I'd be interested to see an interview with the actor.

Even if I did agree he was creepy none, none , of that makes him an incel and part of the point of the plot was that it is creeping into everyday usage as an insult without much thought or real knowledge of what it means or how it can damage.

He said to the psychiatrist, I had a knife and I could’ve done anything I wanted to her, but I didn’t have many other boys would I didn’t kill her.

Jamie had the knife when he went on the date with Katie. He used it as evidence he's not as bad as other boys. His behaviour on their date is how she knew he was an incel.

Jack Thorne himself has interestingly given a much less nuanced response than yours. He thinks stuff about role models is a distraction form bigger things that need sorting. He thinks the internet and internet access if the far bigger issue.

I do think it is interesting that lots of people hunt for the absent father trope as a solution and then when there is a present father think he also must be the reason. Both can be true but it's incredibly more complex than that . I just thought the dad was pretty normal really (shed destruction story aside).

Jamie really was an ordinary 13 year old- the school said he had started acting up a bit but was pretty bright. his size and shape were normal for 13 but the internet told him otherwise - he kept comparing himself to men and referring to 'women' as if he thought he needed to be the same as a man. His parenting was pretty normal- not perfect, but normal. That's the whole point. There is definitely very little work on male body image in schools and families - and Tate and co have massively tapped into that. My students were saying that the internet has made body standards go backwards and become more exaggeratedly different- women with impossible curves and tiny waists as objects for display, and men with six packs. Even 13 year olds seem to want to develop this look.

I thought he was meaning he could have sexually assaulted her, but didn't.
Was he actually on a date with her? I thought they never had a date (pp mentions this)

Yeah, it wasn't a date. Hadn't he pretty much tracked her down? That was in ep 1 and I have forgotten the exact details.

My 12 year old asked me if his legs were too thin yesterday.

He was tracked on CCTV following her.

Tbh honest the psychologist tears could simply have been a release of adrenaline as much as anything.

Dealing with unwell/volatile kids is hard...and sometimes it's just a natural reaction. Sometimes you see something in them that triggers something of your own and subconsciously put a lid on it while you're fulfilling your professional role, but you have to let it out afterwards.

My now 24 year old had huuge body image issues at 13 , mainly around his height.

Jamie had the knife when he went on the date with Katie. He used it as evidence he's not as bad as other boys. His behaviour on their date is how she knew he was an incel.

He didn't have a date with her. He wasn't an Incel. Aren't most 13 year old children celibate? He was a 13 year old child Influenced/groomed by adult incels on the internet.

I used to do exam invigilation and there's a huge variation in size, build and maturity in boys at 16 never mind 13. Some have beards growing and others still look like little boys. One of my grandsons was embarrassed because he was so tall in year 8. This has always been the case for boys and girls but unrealistic images online make it worse. I was very embarrassed at being skinny and flat chested when I was a young teen. Later I was envied for being slim but I didn't know it was going to turn out like that at the time. The skinny 13 year old boys also fill out and develop man sized bodies.

One thing that nobody has mentioned is why it is even being considered normal or desirable for children to have sexual/romantic relationships at 13?
Edit: another poster has just brought that up.

I found the whole thing tedious. We learnt nothing about the psyche of the boy. The last episode was like watching paint dry.