So what did the Adolescence psychologist’s report state?

[sideeyes]

I have been thinking about this for a few days. What do you think?

She was probably appalled: she'd just had a very scary encounter with a raging teenager, and at the same time she liked aspects of his personality but had to accept that he'd thrown his life away by doing something terrible.

Haha me too. I loved all the episodes, but episode three was superb. They both acted brilliantly, but that kid is one hell of an actor! The way he switched so seamlessly between childlike and monster was amazing.

Guessing by how shaken she was privately, and presuming she'd seen a range of unbalanced people before, I'm agreeing her never let him out!

I thought it was so telling how the male psychologist referenced was in being done an dusted in a couple of sessions.

But there may have been a trial, for the friend who gave him the knife. I wanted to know what happened there. And, yes, the sentencing would be interesting to me too.

I think that scene was more about the power dynamic between the psychiatrist and the incel prison guard who needed her to notice him.

Despite her status and the importance of what she was doing, the prison guard talked at her (not with her) because he felt his need for validation from her was more important than what she was there to do.

There was no empathy from the prison guard, just complete entitlement and, even if he registered that she was distracted and trying to focus on her job, he prioritised his own need to be heard and seen over her own agency.

@SleepingCatBlanket DP and I have both worked in clinical settings where security guards are used and we both agreed we've met that type of security man so many times. Always keen to share their 'helpful' knowledge, offer the kind of advice that 'they don't teach you in those fancy universities' and full of barely concealed grudgery that they didn't get into the army/police/ prison service. It was incredibly accurate from my experience.

We've all met low paid men in uniforms who think they should have been Navy Seals - it's exactly the issue with toxic masculinity - bouncers, certain members of the police. They want power roles that make them feel they are above others through pure muscle.

@Thisissuss Absolutely. I was always alarmed by the number of male ex-forces personnel who went into mental health nursing. Caring for vulnerable people is not the place for a "let's get ready to rumble" attitude.
Getting back to the series, though, my observations of female forensic psychologists was that they had to fight through an awful lot of noisy toxic masculinity to be taken seriously as professionals by both staff and clients.
I liked the way she was very firm with her boundaries; I enjoyed her saying a straight "Nope", when Jamie asked to see her notes, and her brisk goodbye.

As for her report, her understanding of his understanding would, I think mention that Jamie felt both comfortable and justified in using aggression and intimidation to justify his actions and that he understood that to be a reasonable response.

I felt the last episode was really good, the scene in the car when the mum and dad were talking about their courtship when they were 13 (school dances, walks home, meeting her parents etc) is clearly to juxtapose that against what Jamie was doing at that same age (posting on Instagram, reading obtuse theories about control and social engineering by nutters like Tate).

I think the psychologists report would class Jamie as a sociopath, unable to empathise with Katie's situation, like when the psychologist has to say "Katie is dead, she can't come back from that" and all Jamie can say is why isn't the boy who gave him the knife in here as well.

Jamie also doesn't seem to think he's done anything wrong all the way through, at least until he tells his family he will be pleading guilty. I thought that scene was very touching, when Jamie jokes about what food they'll get at the Chinese the whole family realises they've lost a member.

I think the underlying message is any family could find themselves in this position.

normal family who have done their best, and ended up with one (female) child who had turned out lovely, which highlights that they were not the cause of the boy’s behaviour.

I've been thinking more about this and the comparison you made between the Jamie and his sister in the context of parenting

I think a really important comparison is between Jamie's dad versus the male DCI. And the DCI's son versus Jamie

Both dad's have traditionally male jobs, both are physically strong manly men.

DCI is self reflective. He says he's a 'soft touch' and leaves his wife to do the discipline in terms of not letting his son miss school. DCI has maternal aspects to his parenting (his response might be "aww poor baby, don't go to school if you have a tummy ache" and he knows that it's not helpful.) His wife has paternal aspects in her parenting ("you're going to school" and their son obeys). DCI is taking his wife's advice to eat apples when he wants a smoke to help him quit. Would we expect Jamie's dad to take his wife's advice?

Both dads seem to be out of touch with their sons

Neither son is strong, well built, 'masculine'. Both are bullied and lack friends.

DCIs son seems like a good kid - no anger boiling just under the surface, helps his dad understand emoji codes. He's aware of, but not radicalised by incel narratives.

Both dads see what's going/gone wrong at the end of their story arc. DCI finds a way to connect with his son over the best chips in the area and ribbing about his terrible french. There's hope there
Jamie's dad left it too late

Isn’t that par for the course with the majority of teen boys? They’re often impossible to communicate with, despite your best efforts you end up talking at them. They often just refuse to talk! I think it’s to show that it could be any of us in that position.

Going against the consensus, I thought episode 4 was excellent. There’s little sympathy for the parents on here but that’s human nature. When something terrible happens we like to tell ourselves stories to reassure ourselves that it won’t happen to us. People don’t want to have empathy with the parents because it’s painful to watch. Families of offenders are usually invisible, but we forget that their child’s crime has a massive impact on them, and their lives as they knew it are over. Along with their hopes and dreams. Add to that the guilt and shame, and the constant fear of reprisals.

Discovering that a person you love deeply isn’t the person you thought they were is psychologically devastating. I thought the program conveyed that beautifully.

Left it too late or didn't see at all. I don't think he thought connection on an emotional level was important for manly men. He was trying to toughen his son up rather than accept he was a person in his own right. DCI has accepted his son isn't "popular" - scene where the girl says there's something wrong about him and he doesn't react - cannot imagine Jamie's dad not blowing a fuse over a perceived slight like that. It's a detailed display of masculinity if you scratch under the surface.

You've nailed it!

Totally disagree. Episode 4 clearly went deeply into why Jamie might have anger issues, and why he was so vulnerable to online influences and bullying.

I think this show more shows the damage a critical, angry and emotionally uninvolved dad has on development than social media.
The social media triggered issues which were there because of his upbringing and views. If it hadn't been that it could have been face to face bullying causing it.
The dad and his anger seems the route cause.

It's a combination. The psycho-social interaction is key. The thing is we cannot control the internet showing our kids anything (rightly or wrongly, not happening any time soon) but we can look within the home and check our relationships and be aware of the internet's impact.

I thought there was a lot of over acting and it was very dragging. I like the DCI and his arms. I also thought his sarg was very police like in her manner and looks. I did write on telly addicts how so many actors, when they are crying never use a tissue it's always there hands and fingers which I find a bit yucky, like the mum in episode 4 when she was crying in the bedroom I thought go and get some toilet paper and wipe your nose. Also the dads facial ticks, As I said over acting badly.

I thought the whole series was really cleverly done. Yes they didn't get everything right, but that's unrealistic.

I am interested as to why so many people thought the 4th episode was pointless though.

It crystallised a lot of things I thought regarding the rigid gender roles in the family, how everyone pandered to dad's temper and Jamie didn't fit expectations of masculinity. I thought the contrast between mum and dads courtship - the school dance, meeting the parents, the snogging vs Jamie asking Katie out after seeing her topless picture because he thought she was weak after it had gone all round the school was really nicely done.

I mean I think that the episode was great and I also like that it's up for interpretation.

Part of the show is that each episode is shot in one continuous shot, so if they wanted to cover what happened to Jamie, it would be another episode and I don't think it would have worked.

For me, the point of the last episode was to show the impact on the wider family. There's enough shows/documentaries out there which show trials and their outcomes (and they feel a little like too much focus on the criminal and not the victim).

I think the female psychologist was looking for the good in him and by the end realised there wasn't any.
The child was a far better actor than the dad in my opinion, I felt his character was inconsistent in the final episode and not very believable at times. The boy was completely believable and brought the character to life.

Yes - and obviously we don’t know, but given she was the psychologist instructed by his solicitor, perhaps it was the content of her report that led his solicitor to advise him to plead guilty

I think the damage the dad's emotional abuse and occasional outbursts of rage was the route cause more so than the Internet use. Jamie's temper mirrored the dad's, Jamie's views on women mirrored the way his dad spoke to his wife and daughrer, and he expected the girl to show him the submission he saw his mum showing.
The final episode showed the mums influence too, she did nothing to protect her daughter from the dad's behaviour, even getting into the car with her after his outburst. Then minimised the dad's impact on Jamie. She cared more about keeping the dad happy than protecting the children from his behaviour.

I didn't take that from the drama at all. The parents loved him but when bringing up children, passive love is not enough, I definitely thought they could have been more proactive in their relationship with him, shown more of an interest.

The scene on the way back in the van was very reminiscent of journeys with my own dad - silent seething and everyone scared to talk - the destructive sulking we often see in the Relationships board. He doesn't seem to have hit his wife but there's that tension lurking constantly. I think this is the kind of introspection the show is hoping to achieve.

I think that scene was more about the power dynamic between the psychiatrist and the incel prison guard who needed her to notice him.

Yep, agree with this. It shows just how normalised and pervasive the behaviour is. Even away from family and the internet, the people responsible for the children in the detention centre are displaying exactly the behaviours and attitudes - the kids have no hope of escaping it because it is everywhere they turn and in the male authority figures they have.

I do think that she would have gleaned something from the video though. Eg How quickly did he calm down with a more "alpha" man (other security guard) dealing with him - was his outburst something genuinely uncontrollable or was it, as she suspected, a reaction to her being a woman but he'd become subservient to an older man in a position of power? Plenty of boys would have continued to kick off and lash out even at the guard. Jamie was sitting back down (I think!).

What was his expression? Was he sitting silently fuming? Was he shouting and still angry? Remorseful? Embarrassed? She'd have been able to pick up some insight, while also taking a bit of a breather from him.

My interpretation of the reason for her tears is that, right at the end of their session, he asks her if she likes him, then again, "even a little bit?"

She realises the absolute ironic juxtaposition of the sociopathic 'monster' behaviour, with the sad, disenfranchised child who is demonstrating one of the most basic elements of human nature, a desire to be liked, loved, valued...and who was now irredeemably lost to the system and had been so let down by a myriad of things, amongst which were innatentive parenting, an expectation to espouse traditional male role play, social media exposure, loneliness.

A perfect storm.