AIBU with my neighbour about our boundary

[ThisPinkCrow]

Hi all,

We have just bought a house in London and are new homeowners. My adjacent neighbour has also bought their house at the same time as me and has begun doing works to it.

My neighbour wants to install EWI and a French drain along their main wall that is only accessible via my side access. I am seeking advice about what people would do in my position because it's not clear to me. Strangely, I can't find any examples of my situation on the internet. I would have thought this is not an uncommon thing. I want someone to tell me YABU/YANBU or if I'm missing anything really obvious here.... thank you to anyone who reads this.

The neighbours house is extended at the rear on the first and ground floor while mine is not extended at all. Both of our houses have damp issues on the ground floor. The neighbours wall is solid up to point of their extension, the extension has a cavity wall above and below. Among other things such as a French drain, as part of a multi-pronged effort to tackle this damp, my neighbour wants to install exterior wall insulation of ~ 10 cm thickness on all the sides of their house. I want to state at the offset I want my neighbours to be able to put insulation on and improve their wall. At the same time, I don't want to agree without being fully informed and regret it later.

The side wall of the main living area of their house borders the full length of my side access. My side access is only accessible to me by my gate. My side access leads straight to my garage at the very back of my garden. Their main wall is stepped out ~ 10cm in places for the two chimney breasts, before it recesses back into the main wall. At the top their roof soffits go another ~10cm beyond the chimneys, and then the roof gutters another ~ 10cm, so overall the furthest part of their structure projects give or take ~30cm from the main rendered wall.

The titles of our properties indicate an approximate straight line boundary along the wall, which then joins the garden fences and the driveway hedge/brick.

The neighbour suggested initially that the boundary follows a straight parallel line from the chimney breasts, so the gap sandwiched between their chimney breasts is their land, which means they can insulate and they just need permission for access and nothing more.

My view was that logically the boundary between our plots would follow exactly the shape of the main fixed structure which is the foundational wall, so along the main recessed wall, then following chimney breast 1, back to the main wall, following chimney breast 2, back to the main wall until it meets the garden fence which aligns with the main recessed wall exactly.

I thought that this is the boundary because the corners of their main wall precisely align with the edges of fences / connecting boundary features that separate our properties at the front drive and at the back garden. This is also the case for other properties with chimneyed walls along the same road. There is also a side access garage extension on the same road which has been built right up to the other house's wall since forever, including fully wrapping around the chimney breasts of their neighbours wall. Not that I would dream of doing this or that it would be approved these days but it seems indicative of where a technical boundary is. There is also a more recent side extension on the same road that looks like it stops not far from the adjacent properties roof structure, but my assumption there is that this was stopping some distance short of the main boundary which is the wall.

The insulation they proposed to put on would not go further than their current chimney breast depth, so in effect their wall would become straight as the parts of the main wall would be brought outwards, with insulation, to the chimney breasts which would be re-rendered but uninsulated (insulated internally) - so that the minimum width of my current side access (2.3 metres), which is set by the protrusion of the chimney breasts, is unchanged. The total area here that would be used by the insulation along this small strip that goes along their wall is only about 1.2 metres squared (12 metres length of their wall x 0.1 metres width).

I said OK to most of this, if that strip is technically my land then they can have that. Additionally I said that they can put the drain adjacent to their newly insulated wall provided that we agree the drain isn't changing the boundary, which we would both then agree follows the shape of their now insulated main wall.

The one material amendment I suggested is a ~ 2m length gap of uninsulated render at the end of their rear extension on the ground floor (which is ahead of the end of my unextended house) - because their extension has a cavity wall and the damp issues are not significant there and something can be done internally. If I wanted to do a rear extension and extend this rear extension out to the side, I would prefer to have all the space I can get even if it's just 10cm. I felt like this was a reasonable compromise where we both got enough of what we wanted - they got 90% of the insulation and the drain, I did not have the most usable width removed from my side access if I wanted to bring vehicles through. Then we would do a normal boundary agreement between ourselves and register this with HMLR which is very cheap and easy to do.

After hearing this the neighbour has paid a lot of money for a surveyor to do a determined boundary report to clarify the boundary. I said I would accept the outcome if the report explained why my thinking was incorrect, then they would seek to register the determined boundary with HMLR.

The report caveats that this is the surveyors opinion because they do not have the original plans, but the surveyor says that it's most logical that the boundary at the wall goes up to the end of my neighbours roof gutters. So my thinking is wrong, and the neighbours thinking that their boundary extends from their chimney breasts in a straight line is also wrong.

My reading of this is that all the land projected downwards from the edge of the neighbours roof gutter is theirs. Basically it's saying they own ~ 25-30 cm of my side access on the ground and all the airspace above it. The report doesn't references other houses locally or on the street, other than to say they also have projecting roof gutters, nor does it explain how the current garden and drive would be visibly offset from the roof edge were this the true boundary, it more seems to assert the conclusion based on the surveyor's experience.

If this is the true boundary then the neighbour does not need my permission to do improvement works to their wall (the insulation and the drains come within this 30 cm strip) they only need permission for access, permission which I would obviously grant if I believed the surveyor is right.

My view was that the gutters and soffits at the top could be classed as a minor trespass at most, or in effect they may be allowed to overhang the boundary because it's not bothering anyone. I was never remotely concerned or bothered about this overhang until I read their surveyor's report. This was not mentioned when I was purchasing my house but I don't blame anyone for that. I don't care about the overhang as long as the downpipes, which come down adjacent to their chimney breasts along their wall, don't discharge on my side and they do not, it doesn't cause any harm to me and if they wanted to maintain that they'd always be given access immediately.

If I accept the edge of the gutters as the boundary, this means my side access can be narrowed another 20cm by the present neighbours or (more likely) future owners if they ever choose to do so and I have no say in the matter. If I also choose to put minimal 10 cm insulation on my wall on my side of the side access (which is currently uninsulated just like the neighbours is), then in the worst scenario the minimum width along my side access at the pinch point could be reduced to less than 2 metres, and I can't really accept that if I want the option to bring vehicles through in future.

I am not really sure what happens next at this point. I just read the report and I've messaged my neighbour to tell them I don't feel like the outcomes are well explained and that if they believe the outcome, that they own ~30cm of pathway in what I perceive to be my side access, and seek to register this boundary I would have to dispute it reluctantly. I've also asked them to forward my details to the surveyor to get in touch with me so they can be better explained to me in case I'm just not getting it.

I'm still on good terms with the neighbour from my perspective, like I'm trying to be difficult, and we're still communicating with each other without any problem, and I don't have any problem with them either. but obviously this is starting to seem like it's about to go off the rails.

So.... AIBU to my neighbour here? Am I just crazy and this is what the boundary really is? If the situation was reversed and I just bought their house and they had bought mine, I do not believe I would assume that I owned part of their side access because my house's roof soffits and gutters slightly overhanged onto their side.

However, if I wanted to insulate my side wall and add a drain to reduce damp, I think I would be completely normal to want those changes and to hope that the neighbour wants to try to work with me to allow them, and to arrive at some compromise which isn't perfect but works well enough, while maintaining an agreement about the existing boundary.... that's what I've tried to do. I've not said no to anything that impacts their ability to tackle their main damp problem that they've asked of me until this point.

But if they want me to accept a determined boundary is somewhere massively different than where I thought it was in order, and then register it, in order to then tackle their damp then I'm not sure how that doesn't lead to solicitors and lots of money going up in flames. I wouldn't be bothered at all if the side access was another 20 - 30cm wider at its narrowest either but it's not and vehicles seem to only get bigger with time, equally I would be worried about what accepting this proposed boundary would do to my house value.

Thank you to anyone who made it to the end of this long post.. I tried to shorten it but it's still lengthy.

In response to all the people saying that I should not have linked this thread to my neighbour, I linked this post to them a few hours after I made it actually, but I only mentioned it here much later. I see nothing wrong with it. If the shoe was on the other foot, I can give my point of view here - you all are only receiving one side of the story afterall, which is mine.

I haven't called my neighbour a single thing here or to their face, in fact I've defended them here against people labelling them. If other people call them things it's not my responsibility. This is my first time on this website, I found it through Google. I don't even know that insults were a thing on here when I made my post, I thought that sort of thing would be against some forum rule but evidently this is not the case.

They have called me all sorts of things, only one or two which I have mentioned here because they were relevant, and they have made repeated negative comments about my character over this. This because I just will not say yes without proper protections, and because I disagree with them about whose land this is. I am a carer and this has had a big impact on my ability to fulfil that responsibility in recent weeks, because of the stress by this I have felt more tired and just less present.

I still haven't fallen out with them on the basis of what they have called me. I try not to take things personally and I will forget about the things they have called me pretty soon. People say all kinds of things when they are upset as well, I'm not going to stay attached to that negativity.

Anyway, I spoke to loads of surveyors via the RICS line over the past few days, thank you to all the people who suggested this.

After providing all the relevant info, diagrams, deeds, plans, needed including a video along the boundary, no one denies that the legal boundary would be determined to be the line of the wall. A few even said that the chimney breasts are on my land, not that I would care about this. I provided the survey my neighbour commissioned as well and everyone thinks it is deeply in error, to put it mildly.

The fact that the hinge of my gate rests between the chimney breasts/the gate folds into this gap, and has done since forever also affirms where the boundary is most likely to be, the boundary would just follow the line of the wall.

My neighbour dismissed all this, saying that because they paid for a surveyor and the surveyor has written they would defend it in court, that whatever I receive via the helpline is just hot air. They will not call the helpline to get impartial advice themselves, of course.

Their surveyor says that the boundary goes up to the edge of the roof gutters for detached houses, right. So that means you can change the gutters and have a bigger boundary. It means everyone in the country with their own side access adjacent to a detached house doesn't own the land anywhere from 30cm to however far the eaves and gutters go. Equally, my neighbour says that if the boundary is not the edge of the gutters, then their house is not truly detached because I would be able to extend to their wall, and this seems to reaffirm to them the results of their survey. I tried to explain that how far I can extend is determined by planning considerations, and limited by overhangs/projections of their fixed structure attached to the boundary and not the boundary at the land itself. Unsurprisingly, they point to their survey in response.

I was at the stage where I was just going to let my neighbour do all of what they wanted, even with the strip at the back, subject to a boundary agreement, just so I didn't have to think about this anymore.

On our last phone call they mentioned unnecessarily that their renderer thought I was insane and crazy. This bothered me, it was just one more thing that had built up, they did not need to say this to me when I have never said such things to them.

More importantly, they meant their renderer's opinion is more important than that of chartered surveyors with 30-40 years experience that I had been speaking to on the RICS helplines in an honest effort to resolve this based on the facts of the matter. Incidentally the surveyor my neighbour used is not chartered and has only been registered with RICS for less than a year.

I thought I would hire a surveyor, just so that I have something the neighbour would listen to before I said no.

The very first surveyor I actually tried to hire, so that I had something to say to my neighbour that they would listen to, the surveyor refused to take money for a survey or even do a survey, this is so obvious he said. There is nothing to survey!

It surprised me that a surveyor would refuse to do a survey and make thousands of pounds. I thought that action spoke for itself, I told my neighbour this but they dismissed this as well.

After this, I have said to my neighbour that they can do their normal re-render and I have said a final no to any drain or insulation works. I told them I am very confident their opinion about the boundary and that of their surveyor are mistaken.

I think they accept this because they are very stressed from this situation too and do not want further disagreement. As I am concerned this is settled. I still would have given what they wanted had they not been so pushy about this from the very beginning.

Increasingly I felt like I would have no self respect if I said yes to this, and would have let myself been walked over by someone who did not care about what was actually true as long as they had a document that they had paid for which supported their view. I've learned a bit better to stand up for myself and my rights by the end of this now, I am glad for that. I also know where to go in future to get advice and to save money.

Incidentally, all this talk of whose land this is, is secondary anyway because even if it was their land, they still need access to my land to do work on it, and if it's improvement work, which this is, then under the Neighbouring Land Act, I think it may be within my right to refuse access, or at least their must be some process that needs to happen before they are permitted. Not that I ever would want to refuse without really good reason if it was their land, I mean in this instance I was saying yes the whole way even when I believed it was mine afterall!

Also looking at the YABU/YANBU ratio, I suspect that is because of the length of my first post. Sorry!

I know how to summarise it now. Probably something like...

I have my own exclusive gated side access that touches my neighbours detached house's wall with its chimney breasts. Is it typically the case that the boundary of the neighbour's house goes up to their roof gutters, or up to the maximum protrusion of their chimney breasts in a straight line, or is it more likely that the boundary simply is the wall/follows the wall.

My neighbour wants to add EWI between the chimney breasts, and add a drain on the land adjacent to the wall, and claims it is all their land and their right to do so. Am I being unreasonable in saying it is my land and not theirs? Please find attached a diagram of our plots.

OK, not perfect but there you have it!

I'm sending you a PM.

I'm glad you found an honest surveyor who didn't take your money for nothing.

The neighbours are using personal insults because they've got no other lines of attack left. They've known from the beginning that they were wrong, they just hoped you wouldn't figure that out. At least all this has shown you the type of people they are now. Hopefully you can get on with settling into your new home without any more nonsense from them.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5165386-cf-neighbours-plans?postsby=Arewe29

This might be of use to you OP.

Also if you have a copy of their RICS survey report you might want to flag the surveyor name to RICS and querying how he can have membership of a professional body when he clearly has no clue what he's doing.

I am SO pleased that in spite of all the upset this situation has caused you, you have decided to say no to your neighbours, and that Mumsnet has helped you to figure things out OP.

You sound like a lovely person if a little too trusting for your own good, so do be aware of scammers, as you seem like a prime candidate.

I hope that given time, your neighbours will get over this and not bear a grudge, as we all have to do whatever is necessary to protect ourselves and our belongings, and I feel sure that in your shoes they would have done the same thing. Hope that you can all live in peace in the future.