AIBU with my neighbour about our boundary

[ThisPinkCrow]

Hi all,

We have just bought a house in London and are new homeowners. My adjacent neighbour has also bought their house at the same time as me and has begun doing works to it.

My neighbour wants to install EWI and a French drain along their main wall that is only accessible via my side access. I am seeking advice about what people would do in my position because it's not clear to me. Strangely, I can't find any examples of my situation on the internet. I would have thought this is not an uncommon thing. I want someone to tell me YABU/YANBU or if I'm missing anything really obvious here.... thank you to anyone who reads this.

The neighbours house is extended at the rear on the first and ground floor while mine is not extended at all. Both of our houses have damp issues on the ground floor. The neighbours wall is solid up to point of their extension, the extension has a cavity wall above and below. Among other things such as a French drain, as part of a multi-pronged effort to tackle this damp, my neighbour wants to install exterior wall insulation of ~ 10 cm thickness on all the sides of their house. I want to state at the offset I want my neighbours to be able to put insulation on and improve their wall. At the same time, I don't want to agree without being fully informed and regret it later.

The side wall of the main living area of their house borders the full length of my side access. My side access is only accessible to me by my gate. My side access leads straight to my garage at the very back of my garden. Their main wall is stepped out ~ 10cm in places for the two chimney breasts, before it recesses back into the main wall. At the top their roof soffits go another ~10cm beyond the chimneys, and then the roof gutters another ~ 10cm, so overall the furthest part of their structure projects give or take ~30cm from the main rendered wall.

The titles of our properties indicate an approximate straight line boundary along the wall, which then joins the garden fences and the driveway hedge/brick.

The neighbour suggested initially that the boundary follows a straight parallel line from the chimney breasts, so the gap sandwiched between their chimney breasts is their land, which means they can insulate and they just need permission for access and nothing more.

My view was that logically the boundary between our plots would follow exactly the shape of the main fixed structure which is the foundational wall, so along the main recessed wall, then following chimney breast 1, back to the main wall, following chimney breast 2, back to the main wall until it meets the garden fence which aligns with the main recessed wall exactly.

I thought that this is the boundary because the corners of their main wall precisely align with the edges of fences / connecting boundary features that separate our properties at the front drive and at the back garden. This is also the case for other properties with chimneyed walls along the same road. There is also a side access garage extension on the same road which has been built right up to the other house's wall since forever, including fully wrapping around the chimney breasts of their neighbours wall. Not that I would dream of doing this or that it would be approved these days but it seems indicative of where a technical boundary is. There is also a more recent side extension on the same road that looks like it stops not far from the adjacent properties roof structure, but my assumption there is that this was stopping some distance short of the main boundary which is the wall.

The insulation they proposed to put on would not go further than their current chimney breast depth, so in effect their wall would become straight as the parts of the main wall would be brought outwards, with insulation, to the chimney breasts which would be re-rendered but uninsulated (insulated internally) - so that the minimum width of my current side access (2.3 metres), which is set by the protrusion of the chimney breasts, is unchanged. The total area here that would be used by the insulation along this small strip that goes along their wall is only about 1.2 metres squared (12 metres length of their wall x 0.1 metres width).

I said OK to most of this, if that strip is technically my land then they can have that. Additionally I said that they can put the drain adjacent to their newly insulated wall provided that we agree the drain isn't changing the boundary, which we would both then agree follows the shape of their now insulated main wall.

The one material amendment I suggested is a ~ 2m length gap of uninsulated render at the end of their rear extension on the ground floor (which is ahead of the end of my unextended house) - because their extension has a cavity wall and the damp issues are not significant there and something can be done internally. If I wanted to do a rear extension and extend this rear extension out to the side, I would prefer to have all the space I can get even if it's just 10cm. I felt like this was a reasonable compromise where we both got enough of what we wanted - they got 90% of the insulation and the drain, I did not have the most usable width removed from my side access if I wanted to bring vehicles through. Then we would do a normal boundary agreement between ourselves and register this with HMLR which is very cheap and easy to do.

After hearing this the neighbour has paid a lot of money for a surveyor to do a determined boundary report to clarify the boundary. I said I would accept the outcome if the report explained why my thinking was incorrect, then they would seek to register the determined boundary with HMLR.

The report caveats that this is the surveyors opinion because they do not have the original plans, but the surveyor says that it's most logical that the boundary at the wall goes up to the end of my neighbours roof gutters. So my thinking is wrong, and the neighbours thinking that their boundary extends from their chimney breasts in a straight line is also wrong.

My reading of this is that all the land projected downwards from the edge of the neighbours roof gutter is theirs. Basically it's saying they own ~ 25-30 cm of my side access on the ground and all the airspace above it. The report doesn't references other houses locally or on the street, other than to say they also have projecting roof gutters, nor does it explain how the current garden and drive would be visibly offset from the roof edge were this the true boundary, it more seems to assert the conclusion based on the surveyor's experience.

If this is the true boundary then the neighbour does not need my permission to do improvement works to their wall (the insulation and the drains come within this 30 cm strip) they only need permission for access, permission which I would obviously grant if I believed the surveyor is right.

My view was that the gutters and soffits at the top could be classed as a minor trespass at most, or in effect they may be allowed to overhang the boundary because it's not bothering anyone. I was never remotely concerned or bothered about this overhang until I read their surveyor's report. This was not mentioned when I was purchasing my house but I don't blame anyone for that. I don't care about the overhang as long as the downpipes, which come down adjacent to their chimney breasts along their wall, don't discharge on my side and they do not, it doesn't cause any harm to me and if they wanted to maintain that they'd always be given access immediately.

If I accept the edge of the gutters as the boundary, this means my side access can be narrowed another 20cm by the present neighbours or (more likely) future owners if they ever choose to do so and I have no say in the matter. If I also choose to put minimal 10 cm insulation on my wall on my side of the side access (which is currently uninsulated just like the neighbours is), then in the worst scenario the minimum width along my side access at the pinch point could be reduced to less than 2 metres, and I can't really accept that if I want the option to bring vehicles through in future.

I am not really sure what happens next at this point. I just read the report and I've messaged my neighbour to tell them I don't feel like the outcomes are well explained and that if they believe the outcome, that they own ~30cm of pathway in what I perceive to be my side access, and seek to register this boundary I would have to dispute it reluctantly. I've also asked them to forward my details to the surveyor to get in touch with me so they can be better explained to me in case I'm just not getting it.

I'm still on good terms with the neighbour from my perspective, like I'm trying to be difficult, and we're still communicating with each other without any problem, and I don't have any problem with them either. but obviously this is starting to seem like it's about to go off the rails.

So.... AIBU to my neighbour here? Am I just crazy and this is what the boundary really is? If the situation was reversed and I just bought their house and they had bought mine, I do not believe I would assume that I owned part of their side access because my house's roof soffits and gutters slightly overhanged onto their side.

However, if I wanted to insulate my side wall and add a drain to reduce damp, I think I would be completely normal to want those changes and to hope that the neighbour wants to try to work with me to allow them, and to arrive at some compromise which isn't perfect but works well enough, while maintaining an agreement about the existing boundary.... that's what I've tried to do. I've not said no to anything that impacts their ability to tackle their main damp problem that they've asked of me until this point.

But if they want me to accept a determined boundary is somewhere massively different than where I thought it was in order, and then register it, in order to then tackle their damp then I'm not sure how that doesn't lead to solicitors and lots of money going up in flames. I wouldn't be bothered at all if the side access was another 20 - 30cm wider at its narrowest either but it's not and vehicles seem to only get bigger with time, equally I would be worried about what accepting this proposed boundary would do to my house value.

Thank you to anyone who made it to the end of this long post.. I tried to shorten it but it's still lengthy.

I know my house is not yours, OP; my gutters and part of my soffits overhang my neighbour's garden, but the boundary is only about 6 inches from my wall, the overhang is definitely more than that.

I might be dumb or something and if I am wrong, I am sure a MNer will correct me, but here is my problem with the plan of giving them a new boundary.

Will that not make your garage (a few centimeters) on their land? Where they may not cause a fuss, but if they sold and moved, could the next homeowner make you move your garage? Centimeters and inches count with property, so whoever holds the mortgage would have a say, correct?

Until you have proper advice, I just would not agree to anything. They seem to be changing the "outlook" as they go along, and that gives me pause and should give you pause, also.

I have redeemed myself later in this post... just for the record. But it's not clear in my main post, because I can't edit it. It is also my first post here. I plead ignorance and ask forgiveness.

I read it, I found it interesting. I don't know the answer though.

My neighbour had a downpipe that came off the side of their roof into my front garden. It was forever blocked so basically water just poured out of the top of it when it rained, running down my garden, taking soil and leaves with it, leaving a mess behind. Luckily they sold and I asked the new owners to remove it as they were doing a lot of renovations. That's the nearest similar situation I've ever had!

https://www.boundariesbook.co.uk/what-is-wrong-with-a-determined-boundary/

This link explained very well for me.

Basically we would agree that the boundary at the garden/drive are unchanged (and I think we do), carefully draft our verbal agreement on all aspects of the boundary to be specific and beyond reproach, then register that boundary agreement through solicitors with HMLR.

Permanent surveyor markers would be placed at the threshold of the current wall on both sides, to indicate that the garden/drive boundaries remain what they used to be. The process to get this registered is relatively straightforward, it seems, at least compared to the determined boundary - there are only a few thousand properties in England with determined boundaries registered, it seems overkill for our issue.

Verbally we seemed to agree on most things until they sought the determined boundary.

Although this said again, this is just from my own research. The neighbour hasn't really said anything to me to guide me on this, this is what I can gather from my own reading... They have said that the my asking so many questions has blown their mind and they thought I should just say yes... but that was at the start, if they think I'm being unreasonable now, well they do not communicate that openly to me.

Yeh charge for the scaffolding too. That way when the cheapo builders they use try to leave it there until they next need it for a job, it'll be in your neighbours vested interest to hassle them to remove it.

You'll also be without access for a car to your garage for however long the scaffolding is up for and drain works taking place for - you should be compensated for that.

And also compensated for the nuisance of having a drain on your land that at some point in time will cause you problems, because sooner or later it'll need repairs, nothing lasts forever.

If it caves in at all, it'll be your land that's unusable until it's repaired - which the neighbours might refuse to do, or drag their heels over. Eg if they don't have the money at that time. Or the drain turns out not to fix their damp problem after all. Then you could be left with a broken drain on your land, a drain belonging to your neighbours who don't give a fuck about it and have no intention of repairing it. Good luck with sorting that one out! You'd have to sue them I expect.

Work hasn't even started and already it's causing you stress and hassle. How much time did that diagram take and this post. What's your usual hourly rate of employment. You just did free work for the neighbours basically. Don't even think about allowing any of this work to the property or change of boundaries for free. Utter madness.

WTF-why would you give them land for free-no matter how small and why would you let them put their drain on your land? CFs! Do you just want to give them a fuck tonne of cash as well? Why are you letting them reduce the value of your property?
See your own solicitor. You need a party wall agreement legally anyway-they have to pay for a REAL party wall surveyor; you get the one you want-they have to pay for it. They are taking advantage of your naivety.

They have said that the my asking so many questions has blown their mind and they thought I should just say yes.

Yeh I'll bet they did 🤣🤣 poor diddums, aren't they?! They saw you coming a mile off OP. Stand firm, they'll only get worse when they realise their "wide-eyed innocent" act isn't working.

I explained earlier.

We both bought houses at the same time, and generally if something doesn't harm me but makes a big positive difference to someone else, I am going to try to find a way to say yes.

This insulation does not bother me, subject to caveats where a small zone remains uninsulated for my future benefit, and it only goes to their chimney breasts so that the width of my side access is not narrowed at all.

If I was them and had a cold wall and a 3 metre wide living room, I would certainly not expect, but I would hope my neighbours would work with me so as not to narrow my main living space any further than it already is. I wouldn't blame them at all if they did not want to co-operate, but I would hope we could agree on something is all. My feelings on this are independent on whether I like my neighbours or not, I don't know them, I just put myself in there shoes, that's it.

The drain does not bother me, subject to caveats about installation, material, and a legal agreement that the boundary is unimpacted - the drain would be owned by the owners of my house, not theirs - if I want to tear it out I would do that, and I would be prepared to pay to do so in the unlikely event. I value a relationship with my neighbours more than the cost of removing the drain. My use of the side area is unimpacted by the drain.

Equally, I do not think either of these things would bother future owners of my property if they are done the correct way and registered correctly. The side access is not narrowed, the ability to extend to the side is unchanged, the drain ca be removed, the garden/drive boundaries are unimpacted, and the neighbour gets to do the work they want to do.

That said the points that Rabbitsinthelilac mentions about something going wrong with the drain impacting me and costing me money, yes I can't disagree with those, I am just prepared to take the risk that this does not happen. I mean the drain is just a big perforated pipe with pebbles and a grate on top.

I agree with all the points about seeking some legal advice on the boundary, yes sure, now it has got to that stage. But I don't agree with the attitude that I should be unnecessarily hostile to someone who lives next to me who doesn't want to be cold in their house, even if they are ultimately wrong about this particular work solving their problem, which is a sentiment I have communicated to them clearly.

Your diagrams are excellent and your photos add colour. Well done :)

In my limited experience that is an odd report from the surveyors, as they should be determining the boundary from the actual deposited plans, not from custom.

As PPs have said, your conveyancing solicitor should have a copy of the deposited plans.

OP you are being very very naive. Do not let them encroach on your property at all. It impacts access to your garage and issues like this will put off any future buyers of your property should you decide to move at a later date.
Stop these plans straight away, they are taking advantage of your desire to be a reasonable neighbour, you will certainly live to regret allowing them to do this work and mess around with your boundary. Seek independent advice and get them to pay for any professional services you need to engage on your behalf.

The drain is a liability and will be off putting when you come to sell. Getting them to maintain it (and remember - they may sell and the new buyer will not have been involved in the negotiation, will not feel they owe you, may be an arms length landlord or someone else not particularly invested in maintaining the best property or best neighbour relationships) can become costly. If it becomes damaged they may argue the toss over who is responsible for the damage and so who should pay. Even if it just breaks from age they are not impacted by it, but you will be. It could easily become a matter of you maintaining their property at your expense or finding you cannot drive to garage. These sorts of “gifts” to neighbours often sit unnoticed for years and then, when everyone’s sort of forgotten about them something happens or someone new comes along and they become an expensive albatross. Even allowing people temporary access to your land can be fraught with problems because there is huge scope for expensive overruns and you have no control over the work being done and the people who do don’t feel your pain so you will likely be the one whose needs are right at the bottom of the pile.

Given the way they blindsided you with their claim for land after you thought you were in agreement in a way that would maintain the status quo while giving them what they needed, I think you are being pretty naive. They aren’t playing nice, they are trying to ensure they have whatever they want, regardless of the impact on you.

It's impossible to judge without a detailed plan - and even then, without the deeds, we'd have no way of knowing. If you're concerned, you'd need to talk to experts.

I take your other points, but would not making the agreement state that the drain is mine make this simpler? If there is an issue and they don't maintain it, I can take it out. Also I don't see what maintenance a perforated pipe that absorbs groundwater and redirects it down a slope realistically needs once installed correctly with a steel covering at the top, that pipe is reducing groundwater in that side access - if it stops working well, it's just going to mean the water levels by the neighbour's walls go back to normal. It's not like there's a large amount of water in that pipe, it's just slowly seeping water away from the ground and taking it away by gravity.

On your last paragraph, the first suggestion for a determined boundary was initially mine much much earlier in the communicaton with my neighbour. There is background here that I've omitted for clarity. They had not provided any guidance about how things should go, they sort of said we want to do this, this is why we want to do it, can you let us do it. I have been trying to figure out how to respond on my own. The neighbour has been in the building trade for a long time, obviously has a solicitor, and though is not a builder but works for builders and obviously knows a lot of builders. In fact the builders doing the work on their property, the main one whom I met briefly, is one they have worked with directly on many previous occasions.

One of the first items I read about establishing boundaries upon googling was on the topic of determined boundaries. I said we obviously don't know what the boundary is, we both have different beliefs, so maybe it's best to allow an independent third party to explain to us what it is. Either way I'll allow the works you want to do, but it would help to know the boundary to make this process less ambiguous. I suggested they could go and do one of those and I would agree to abide by the outcome provided their conclusions were well explained, and the points I had raised were addressed.

I have been precise with my language that I'm not going to just accept anything from someone who is being paid by them. After that point, they sought a quote from a firm and sent it to me. Once I saw the amount they would have to pay, which was crazy, I said immediately it's probably better not do that if we can avoid it. Let me first find another way if possible to avoid you paying that much - because either way, no matter the outcome of the report, I was ready to compromise to give them the insulation/drain, right, the determined boundary report would only impact some of the specifics and serve as protection - and I thought that was the only way to register a boundary at the time, but it's not.

After that point I read further, and came across the article I linked earlier in this message thread:

https://www.boundariesbook.co.uk/what-is-wrong-with-a-determined-boundary

It seemed very obvious to me that a normal boundary agreement was the reasonable way forward.... there are a few thousand properties with determined boundary agreements registered in England & Wales. I don't think our properties are anything out of the ordinary, it shouldn't need a determined boundary agreement for two normal houses side by side. What you need instead is a normal boundary agreement with both owners, which can also be registered with HMLR on the deeds, and unless it's super complicated it has the same effect practically.

So at that point I started working with them to agree on a solution for the drain/insulation, verbally agreeing on the boundary as we discussed where we were each ready to compromise and on the nature of the prospective works, clarifying final details. I was just ready to start drafting up a final agreement with drawings so they could start works in the next week or two. Then they said they were going to the determined boundary suddenly, I again said it's not needed but they went ahead and did it. I didn't find out they had done it until I asked for an update, I was left with the impression they were considering it in my last communication.

To be clear as well actually, the report I received does not say determined boundary anywhere inside it, it says Boundary Surveying Report by a RICS certified property measurer. I am assuming this whole time that it is the same thing because it costs so much, when maybe it's not. There are no measurements in the whole report except for how far the chimney breasts protrude outwards roughly, that is the only measurement in the whole report. There is not a single drawing at all inside it, other than those reproduced from Ordnance maps and the deeds at HMLR. Though the rest of the report references my house number with photos, the actual land title / deeds at the end are not even for my property, but instead their opposite neighbour, though this seems to be an error by the report draftsman.

I have not read your PhD thesis in full, but read the start and scanned. Apologies if I missed f at one thing.

1. Your neighbours cannot dig a channel and install gravel on your land.
2. While access for essential repairs and maintenance can be required, I’m not aware that it s as police’s to new works.

However, I’d ask in more succinctly in legal and consider actual legal advice.

I really wouldn’t trust the report they’ve had done because it does sound counter to common sense expectations and because they may just have written what the person paying wanted to hear. You need someone working on your side, I think.

Both properties I believe were probate / by executor properties, mine was sold with limited title guarantee. There are basically no documents or conveyance plans. I don't know the situation for the neighbour but I assume they don't have plans either, otherwise they would have provided them to this surveyor. The surveyor says he can't judge anything without the original plans, only that it's not uncommon for detached house boundaries to go up to the roof gutters - that is his rationale for his conclusion.

Yes, at this point I'll have to seek professional advice. The idea that the house is detached, therefore the boundary must go up to the gutters, and therefore I lose 15% of my side access on the ground does not sound right to me.

The boundary is not extended by the existence of guttering attached to their building. The guttering overhangs your land and is a common easement as it’s good for both houses of roof water is properly drained.

I’d lovely to knoecee we here he gets that from. Assuming it’s not a new build, thr guttering would have been a later addition.

I agree. The OP needs a party wall surveyor , who should be paid for by the neighbour.

Thank you.

It is also worth mentioning there is nothing written in the deeds about any overhang, no covenants/easements, except something about all the housing having tiled roofs, and what kind of buildings are allowed to be erected on the land.

OP, I mean this kindly, but you're being a mug and you're going to get shafted if you carry on this way.

Stop taking responsibility for how much things will cost them, it's literally not your problem in any way, let them pay for the bells-and-whistles survey, in fact - you should have insisted on it.

Stop trying to bend over backwards to give things away. The loser will be you. You "don't see how etc etc etc..." And that's the problem.

Instead of turning yourself into a human pretzel trying to figure all this out, all you had to say was No. And you should have done. For your own sake.

Unnecessary hostility???
THEY. TRIED. TO. STEAL. FROM. YOU.
It doesn't get much more hostile than that. They deserve zero niceties after that.

But crack on with being walked all over if you wish. There's a legal board on here where you might get advice when it all inevitably goes tits up. Good luck

I know you're trying to be helpful - this is me trying to understand you, not argue with you.

If I was a mug, I would just let them do what they want exactly how they want it, and not ask questions. I'm not doing that. I'm saying you have to do it a certain way or I'm not going to consent. I am trying to find a solution that works for both of us.

I say again.. if an agreed boundary can be registered legally on both deeds, legally extends to future owners, the side access is not narrowed at all from its current width, the drain is constructed properly without altering my boundary and I have the option to remove it, with covenants for maintenance on their side, and I am OK with this, then what is really at stake? A tiny strip that I have thought enough about, perhaps too much about, and decided I am OK to let go so their house stays warmer - whether it's for free or whether they purchase it - and the possibility that the drain breaks at some point in the future and they refuse to fix it.

I will admit that this issue has caused me a lot of unneeded stress and I've lost some sleep over it, yes, in that sense it has cost me time and energy, both today and a few weeks ago when these conversations began.

But I do not agree that they've tried to steal from me. What makes you say that? They have not started any works at the boundary because I have not consented to them. They have asked at the start very expectantly and said a few choice words expressing disapproval at my initial questions, but we've moved past that - I don't dwell on that, I mentioned that only because someone asked me about it.

Why should I just say no to someone who we are supposed to live next to potentially our whole lives, if there is a compromise that is reasonable why shouldn't I seek it?

I have good relationships with my neighbours where I live presently, I like that - I don't want to be buddies but it's definitely helpful to get along. This is the sort of thorny issue that can mean we never ever get along from day one.

I am going with my gut instinct that they are decent until proven otherwise, and so far while I feel they could've approached things better, I am not ready to forsake that instinct.

To put this another way, what would you do from the very beginning?

I take your other points, but would not making the agreement state that the drain is mine make this simpler?

It sort of makes it simple, though a clear agreement can still be challenged in court, which can be expensive and time consuming. And it doesn’t make it cost free. If you had to take out the drain it would be a cost to you, both the expense of taking it out and the difficulties in being unable to use the access until it was sorted.

French drains can get clogged, or it could end up being insufficient, especially if the climate changes dramatically or your neighbour changes their garden in some way, flooding the passageway which could have several knock on effects (which, if they cause damage to your neighbour’s property, you may be financially responsible for since you own the drain - maybe check that with your lawyer on that). If it’s not properly installed, you may not know for a while and if it ends up diverting the water from your neighbour’s property on to yours your neighbour may not care to spend money to sort it out. Also the steel grid you want over the top (I can see why you don’t want gravel) could break over time, especially if you’re driving on it, and need replacing.

These things may not happen and if they do probably won’t manifest for a some time. But when they do they can be an utter pain, expensive, time consuming and cause a lot of bad feeling. And you are taking on this risk for no benefit of your own. This is why it isn’t something that people are able to oblige you to help out with - because it isn’t actually fair to you to host works that only benefit your neighbour without any compensation.

I see I may have jumped to conclusions over the sequence of events with the surveyor and boundary. I was under the impression they’d kind of blindsided you with the idea of getting an “independent” surveyor, but there may have been more of a run up to it than I’d realised.

Nevertheless, I think you would be wise to hold your ground a bit harder so it’s clear to them they could lose out if they keep pushing. At the moment your responses set things up to only go one way - in their favour and against you - it’s just a matter of how far. They’ve said jump and you’re looking around wondering how high is reasonable. But you don’t have to jump at all, you hold more of the cards here. You could quite easily point out that they are causing you stress and expense (if you need legal advice) and that it is making you less inclined to be amenable to allowing them to do any work at all on your property.

You came on here to ask if the negotiation between you was normal and we’re pretty much all saying “No. You are giving in too easily and could come to regret it.”.

You lost me at ‘Hello’