AIBU with my neighbour about our boundary

[ThisPinkCrow]

Hi all,

We have just bought a house in London and are new homeowners. My adjacent neighbour has also bought their house at the same time as me and has begun doing works to it.

My neighbour wants to install EWI and a French drain along their main wall that is only accessible via my side access. I am seeking advice about what people would do in my position because it's not clear to me. Strangely, I can't find any examples of my situation on the internet. I would have thought this is not an uncommon thing. I want someone to tell me YABU/YANBU or if I'm missing anything really obvious here.... thank you to anyone who reads this.

The neighbours house is extended at the rear on the first and ground floor while mine is not extended at all. Both of our houses have damp issues on the ground floor. The neighbours wall is solid up to point of their extension, the extension has a cavity wall above and below. Among other things such as a French drain, as part of a multi-pronged effort to tackle this damp, my neighbour wants to install exterior wall insulation of ~ 10 cm thickness on all the sides of their house. I want to state at the offset I want my neighbours to be able to put insulation on and improve their wall. At the same time, I don't want to agree without being fully informed and regret it later.

The side wall of the main living area of their house borders the full length of my side access. My side access is only accessible to me by my gate. My side access leads straight to my garage at the very back of my garden. Their main wall is stepped out ~ 10cm in places for the two chimney breasts, before it recesses back into the main wall. At the top their roof soffits go another ~10cm beyond the chimneys, and then the roof gutters another ~ 10cm, so overall the furthest part of their structure projects give or take ~30cm from the main rendered wall.

The titles of our properties indicate an approximate straight line boundary along the wall, which then joins the garden fences and the driveway hedge/brick.

The neighbour suggested initially that the boundary follows a straight parallel line from the chimney breasts, so the gap sandwiched between their chimney breasts is their land, which means they can insulate and they just need permission for access and nothing more.

My view was that logically the boundary between our plots would follow exactly the shape of the main fixed structure which is the foundational wall, so along the main recessed wall, then following chimney breast 1, back to the main wall, following chimney breast 2, back to the main wall until it meets the garden fence which aligns with the main recessed wall exactly.

I thought that this is the boundary because the corners of their main wall precisely align with the edges of fences / connecting boundary features that separate our properties at the front drive and at the back garden. This is also the case for other properties with chimneyed walls along the same road. There is also a side access garage extension on the same road which has been built right up to the other house's wall since forever, including fully wrapping around the chimney breasts of their neighbours wall. Not that I would dream of doing this or that it would be approved these days but it seems indicative of where a technical boundary is. There is also a more recent side extension on the same road that looks like it stops not far from the adjacent properties roof structure, but my assumption there is that this was stopping some distance short of the main boundary which is the wall.

The insulation they proposed to put on would not go further than their current chimney breast depth, so in effect their wall would become straight as the parts of the main wall would be brought outwards, with insulation, to the chimney breasts which would be re-rendered but uninsulated (insulated internally) - so that the minimum width of my current side access (2.3 metres), which is set by the protrusion of the chimney breasts, is unchanged. The total area here that would be used by the insulation along this small strip that goes along their wall is only about 1.2 metres squared (12 metres length of their wall x 0.1 metres width).

I said OK to most of this, if that strip is technically my land then they can have that. Additionally I said that they can put the drain adjacent to their newly insulated wall provided that we agree the drain isn't changing the boundary, which we would both then agree follows the shape of their now insulated main wall.

The one material amendment I suggested is a ~ 2m length gap of uninsulated render at the end of their rear extension on the ground floor (which is ahead of the end of my unextended house) - because their extension has a cavity wall and the damp issues are not significant there and something can be done internally. If I wanted to do a rear extension and extend this rear extension out to the side, I would prefer to have all the space I can get even if it's just 10cm. I felt like this was a reasonable compromise where we both got enough of what we wanted - they got 90% of the insulation and the drain, I did not have the most usable width removed from my side access if I wanted to bring vehicles through. Then we would do a normal boundary agreement between ourselves and register this with HMLR which is very cheap and easy to do.

After hearing this the neighbour has paid a lot of money for a surveyor to do a determined boundary report to clarify the boundary. I said I would accept the outcome if the report explained why my thinking was incorrect, then they would seek to register the determined boundary with HMLR.

The report caveats that this is the surveyors opinion because they do not have the original plans, but the surveyor says that it's most logical that the boundary at the wall goes up to the end of my neighbours roof gutters. So my thinking is wrong, and the neighbours thinking that their boundary extends from their chimney breasts in a straight line is also wrong.

My reading of this is that all the land projected downwards from the edge of the neighbours roof gutter is theirs. Basically it's saying they own ~ 25-30 cm of my side access on the ground and all the airspace above it. The report doesn't references other houses locally or on the street, other than to say they also have projecting roof gutters, nor does it explain how the current garden and drive would be visibly offset from the roof edge were this the true boundary, it more seems to assert the conclusion based on the surveyor's experience.

If this is the true boundary then the neighbour does not need my permission to do improvement works to their wall (the insulation and the drains come within this 30 cm strip) they only need permission for access, permission which I would obviously grant if I believed the surveyor is right.

My view was that the gutters and soffits at the top could be classed as a minor trespass at most, or in effect they may be allowed to overhang the boundary because it's not bothering anyone. I was never remotely concerned or bothered about this overhang until I read their surveyor's report. This was not mentioned when I was purchasing my house but I don't blame anyone for that. I don't care about the overhang as long as the downpipes, which come down adjacent to their chimney breasts along their wall, don't discharge on my side and they do not, it doesn't cause any harm to me and if they wanted to maintain that they'd always be given access immediately.

If I accept the edge of the gutters as the boundary, this means my side access can be narrowed another 20cm by the present neighbours or (more likely) future owners if they ever choose to do so and I have no say in the matter. If I also choose to put minimal 10 cm insulation on my wall on my side of the side access (which is currently uninsulated just like the neighbours is), then in the worst scenario the minimum width along my side access at the pinch point could be reduced to less than 2 metres, and I can't really accept that if I want the option to bring vehicles through in future.

I am not really sure what happens next at this point. I just read the report and I've messaged my neighbour to tell them I don't feel like the outcomes are well explained and that if they believe the outcome, that they own ~30cm of pathway in what I perceive to be my side access, and seek to register this boundary I would have to dispute it reluctantly. I've also asked them to forward my details to the surveyor to get in touch with me so they can be better explained to me in case I'm just not getting it.

I'm still on good terms with the neighbour from my perspective, like I'm trying to be difficult, and we're still communicating with each other without any problem, and I don't have any problem with them either. but obviously this is starting to seem like it's about to go off the rails.

So.... AIBU to my neighbour here? Am I just crazy and this is what the boundary really is? If the situation was reversed and I just bought their house and they had bought mine, I do not believe I would assume that I owned part of their side access because my house's roof soffits and gutters slightly overhanged onto their side.

However, if I wanted to insulate my side wall and add a drain to reduce damp, I think I would be completely normal to want those changes and to hope that the neighbour wants to try to work with me to allow them, and to arrive at some compromise which isn't perfect but works well enough, while maintaining an agreement about the existing boundary.... that's what I've tried to do. I've not said no to anything that impacts their ability to tackle their main damp problem that they've asked of me until this point.

But if they want me to accept a determined boundary is somewhere massively different than where I thought it was in order, and then register it, in order to then tackle their damp then I'm not sure how that doesn't lead to solicitors and lots of money going up in flames. I wouldn't be bothered at all if the side access was another 20 - 30cm wider at its narrowest either but it's not and vehicles seem to only get bigger with time, equally I would be worried about what accepting this proposed boundary would do to my house value.

Thank you to anyone who made it to the end of this long post.. I tried to shorten it but it's still lengthy.

You need to employ your own surveyor who has access to the original plans or land deeds.

So why bother posting? Just to be rude?

They think they are being clever / funny but clearly aren't.

Ok, thank you for this explanation.

I mean, at this stage, there is no negotiation - it sounds like they want me to accept the boundary goes up to their roof gutters because their surveyor says so. Obviously I can't consent to any of their insulation or drain works at all now because that would be conceding that this is true when I don't think it is. So any negotiation is out the window at this point unless they decide to revisit that. But even on that negotiation my attitude towards this has not been typical and has been insufficiently considerate of my own needs, understood.

I think you need to stop googling and get some professional advice.
If your neighbours are in the trade, I wouldn't believe anything they say, or anything they have commissioned - they will be using their mates.

You need to
Speak with your mortgage provider
Check your buildings insurance - see if you have any legal advice included in your policy. You should probably speak to the insurers anyway.

Depending on whether you get any advice from the above
Speak to a solicitor who deals in property matters
Get your own surveyor who specialises in boundary issues.

You don’t need to be hostile to stand your ground-after all it IS your ground! Of course they can do what they want to their own property but it should be in THEIR property and not encroaching on yours. You can just say no-I’m going to talk to my solicitor first.

this can’t actually true-you’re on the wind up at this stage-no one sits there mutely going I don’t mind when their neighbours want to take their land-no matter how small that demand is.

She has never just said "I don't mind", be fair, she's asked for more information, has laid out some proposed conditions etc.

Though I do agree I'd be very wary of someone who works in the building trade. They will know all the tricks and all the right/wrong people.

The fact that the survey put the wrong deeds on the report would be a massive red flag to me - did s/he even come to the property? Why would s/he have the plans for a different house? The report sounds pretty shoddy, and wrong. I think RICS has an advice line, not 100% sure.

Here you go:

no actual advice other than I’d go back to my conveyancing solicitor on this one and I wouldn’t give up that strip, as I’d always want to bring a vehicle to the garage.
check if you’ve got legal cover on your home insurance, I think you might need it.

is it 1930’s by any chance?
apologies if I missed this bit. Often you’d have a shared driveway to access each respective garage. Do you think that’s what you’ve had and over time, that house got rid of theirs and your house gained ownership of that strip?
in which case I’d assume the original boundary is irrelevant as the fence was obviously agreed

I think at this stage OP, I would just say no, as the whole thing has clearly become messy, and is causing you anxiety. I understand that you are trying to be a kind and reasonable neighbour, but I do think that your neighbours are trying to take advantage of you.

If you still wish to consider what they want to do, then my advice would be to tell them that because they have now brought up the possibility of changing the boundary in their favour, that you will need to seek legal advice, which you will require them to pay for. If they're not prepared to do this, then that's an end to the matter and the answer is no. You can tell them that you want to be a reasonable neighbour, but obviously you need to protect your own interests, and that you hope they understand that, but please DO bear in mind that the vast majority of people these days will take advantage of others if it benefits them, and while often nice when they want something from you, you will see a different side to them, if you ask something of them in the future, that is not to THEIR benefit. Sadly, it'a 'dog eat dog' world these days, and you would be foolish not to seek legal advice before going any further.

I would rewrite your post succinctly and post it on Garden Law forum.

Do not, do not, I repeat DO NOT get into a boundary dispute with your neighbour. Bitter experience that nearly killed me. It will cost you £30k in legal fees at the very least.

You lost us when you felt quoting the whole post just for that was a good idea.

I say they tried to steal from you because their very first attempt to get what they wanted was to tell you wrongly that your land (the side access) was their land. That was their attempted theft.

It tells me all I need to know about the type of person they are. They expected you to concede to them. That's good indication that you shouldn't! Their sense of entitlement will only get stronger if you do and you'll have even more trouble getting them to accept a no next time.

They're not treating you as an equal. They're not respecting you. If they were then in the first instance they'd have asked politely for the favour of you selling your access to them for a decent price that acknowledges that its your only vehicular access to your garage and that by giving it to them you'd have devalued your property. But they didn't, their go-to was attempted theft.

They're still attempting theft of a lesser amount by trying to pressure you to alter the boundary. Don't negotiate with theives, that isn't sensible behaviour or in your own best interests. Don't put yourself out for theives. They're acting nice (badly, but enough to pull the wool over your eyes it seems). They're actually not being nice at all. They've caused you stress and hassle. They're using dodgy surveyors and will probably use dodgy builders. There's no need for you to be involved with any of this at all. And no benefit to you being involved with it. So don't be. Your responsibility is to yourself. You owe them nothing, not even kindness, because they aren't being kind.

You're currently taking responsibility for things that aren't your responsibility. Their damp issue, which if they're builders/good at DIY they should have known about when they purchased, because a cheapy damp meter from a DIY store pressed to the wall would have alerted anyone to it's presence, is their problem to fix. They should have had a plan, before deciding to purchase, to tackle it that didn't mean bullying the neighbour (which is what they're attempting to do to you). The size of their living room after repairs is literally nothing to do with you, so don't concern yourself with it.

It doesn't make you a good neighbour to take responsibility for help finding a solution to their problems, it makes you a mug. Don't make their problems into your problems. Leaving them to deal with their own problems, which as people involved with building works they should have been well aware they were taking on, doesn't make you a bad neighbour. It makes you a sensible one.

A small update on this.

I'm still pending a registration on GardenLaw, but I have spoken with several different RICs firms through their boundary helpline that was suggested by many people here. I provided all the same information to them here in concise form - photographs, the survey itself, everything.

They are all telling me that the neighbour's surveyor's opinion is not only unjustified about the boundary going to the roof gutters, and extremely unlikely to hold up in a court of law, but just as importantly that the neighbour is being unreasonable with me.

Even were the neighbour's surveyor to be right, a compromise of some kind that works for both of us would be wisest - the neighbours don't care that their surveyor-endorsed boundary narrows my side access enough to so that a car can't safely get through the pinch point at the front...

The opinion of the various RICs surveyors is split on whether I am being far too reasonable with them or only reasonable, especially in the face of the disregard they are showing towards me. At least I am sure now that I am not being unreasonable towards them. While I won't say I have been a mug, I will say I have been naive and too trusting because of my kind nature.

Separately, I learned today that their surveyor was given access to my property without my prior written permission, which was provided only for their building and scaffolding contractors for repairs to a leak in their roof, this is explicitly and unambiguously in writing. We made this agreement on the 7th March. My neighbour then booked the surveyor on the 7th March without telling me, the survey happened on the 12th March, it's in the report.

The neighbour only told me on the 12th March that they were going to do this survey or thinking about it, and this was only as a response because I reached out that afternoon via text to let them know I was still drafting a boundary agreement. They would not have said anything to me otherwise until they had the report in hand. It was not clear even in their writing that the survey was happening right then right now either, they it was as if it was going to be scheduled.

I didn't know these dates until I found them in the report, I thought they were asking if it was OK to do the survey after the 12th - but no, they had done it and had intended to do it all along without asking me despite our agreement.

At this point I have told them to get their roof repairs done, tell me when it's done and then to take down their scaffolding and leave my property. I can go change the lock right now because they have brokn our agreement but I do not want to inflame things further, I will keeping an eye on the property to make sure nothing unusual is happening. If it is I will change the locks immediately. Maybe this is me still being far too reasonable.

I want to trust my neighbour but I do not feel anymore that they are being kind or decent towards me and I think I've finally woken up that they don't care about me or my needs as long as they get what they want. I've been prepared to give inches and they want to take miles.

I don't know what happens now, I guess it's up to them. I still will try to get along with them, but what can I do. I am going to be talking to them later today.

Unless they proactively come forward with a plan to do their works that respects my needs where they are willing to pay for legal advice and take my protection seriously, and I am willing to trust again. Or unless they try to sue me to force access because everything the light touches (or doesn't touch in this case, it's in the shadow of the roof structure) is their kingdom. It's sad this is the outcome of all this stress.

They certainly are CFs and any breakdown in relations is entirely down to their arrogant, grasping behaviour. If the scaffolding doesn't come down in timely fashion, call another scaffolder and ask if they want it.

Friends of mine with a ground floor flat did this last year, when it was left for 6 months. They'd called the scaffolder numerous times and he'd promised to get it.

I didnt have the stamina to read all that you have written. But I know from experience that it is quite common for the owner of an ajoining property to own, or have rights over a small strip of ground along your side of the boundary wall to allow for them to do maintainance

The neighbour has been given the link to this thread the other day by the way, I don't know if they've opened it. Not with the intent to reply, but just I linked it out of interest to show them I was getting opinions because I though they were being unreasonable and I did not want to go the legal route, I want to work things out based on what is most reasonable.

If they want to let Mumsnet know I'm the unreasonable one, they can come on here and give their side of the story. I'm not going to argue, everything I have stated is true.

They are not doing maintenance, they are wanting to do improvement by adding insulation and a drain. Whether or not they owned the strip, I was prepared to give them it freely even if it was mine. What they are laying claim to because of their survey is 30 cm all along my side as far as the edge of the roof gutters go, including a protrusion into the garden (because their house is extended) and in my drive (because their house starts before mine), this is not a small strip. If I consent any works now, that's what I'm saying "I agree" to. That's where this discussion has begun to sour, but mainly it's the part now where they gave access to someone with my key who I had not permitted to be there.

Nope. Nope. Nope. Not your problem OP. Don’t let them do this.

On this, I guess the insulation must be classifed as an improvement. It is more questionable about the drain and I don't have as clear an answer to that. I don't actually know how bad the damp is. If it's clear that this is maintenance work I am obviously going to let them do the works as long as these details are properly registered as a boundary - there is nothing on the deeds afterall.

If they are wanting to install a new DPC, that doesn't cause any boundary issues so pending agreement I would have no issue with that either.

I still have no problem with them putting in a drain or insulation in principle, but with the new boundary that they think is reasonable I cannot consent to any works because it would indicate consent of that as well.

I guess we'll see what happens.

@ThisPinkCrow

this is the most ridiculous post ever.
get an lawyer and architect at there expense
or nothing is possible

dint give anything that might affect your value

I too, still believe that you need to get legal advice BEFORE allowing them to do ANYTHING. They've shown you quite clearly now, that they are NOT to be trusted, so unless they are prepared to pay for you to take legal advice, then I would refuse anything, other than access to maintain their wall. PLEASE take this advice or you may well live to regret it.

Sheesh!
you’ve gone from not wanting to offend the neighbours to giving them a link to this thread where they are being called grasping CF’s.

I think you have probably fallen out with them now.

Incidentally simple french drains can go very wrong especially on London clay, for example it could potentially start working as a sump drawing water in towards your property.

Why have you done that? 😳

Did you think giving them a link to the thread would mean they see everyone saying they're unreasonable and see the error of their ways?! Never going to happen OP!

Never give the other person a link to your thread that's there to support you.