To be gleeful that most of us were right

[Wranglestar]

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/adding-vat-to-private-school-fees-has-had-no-obvious-impact-on-state-sector-applications-390546/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR2ATdaVlNkJsbtC-KizuW4Fw41obnpvezxnFv4IAFwzJPHXmU90Awr5eqAaem9tMIsn9I0vHSC4jrdYONIA#0rd9makyd4264nstc4us9j77yk5kaoswtLondon Economic

And that private schools has had no impact on state school places. The rich have simply - paid more. Excellent news!

There is no ‘one size fits all’ for SEN kids. Some SEN children crave quiet, orderly settings but for others it’s the opposite and they cannot cope with strict rules. One thing that it clear is that being thrown all into the same classroom in the name of ‘Inclusion’ will be a total disaster for all.

But why do you want specialist provision "dismantled"?

Because it is the classic case of someone thinking that other people should not get what they do not. Even though they don't need the extra support. Someone has something. Don't like it. It's bad. For example, I wear glasses. Some people don't. Therefore I should not have access to opticians and glasses that help me read. That's bad.

@Wranglestarwell let's get rid of private healthcare, private dentistry, chiropody, physios and anything else where the people who pay privately are also paying all their taxes and not using up public resources. Let's go whole hog and be communists.

Sorry, I didn't explain that properly. I would prefer to not send my children to one, I wouldn't wish to restrict anyone else's choice to do so though, everyone knows their own child and what is best for them.

And you’re quite entitled to your view, but the way it has been presented in this thread from the outset has come across as vindictive and unkind. Even suggesting that a policy implemented only months ago, and so impossible to assess, has somehow been victorious shows your emotional rather than objective investment, at the detriment to the children and families affected.

My child goes to a private school and I don’t disagree with the schools being subject to VAT. I do disagree with the way this was implemented, half way through the year, without proper consultation, so that schools didn’t know how to reassure and support parents, to the detriment of children. You can support a policy without being unkind about it

You weren't addressing me, but I hope you don't mind me answering.

I do think there shouldn't be fee-paying schools in England. Having such schools has had such bad effects on our society and its governance. I think we should do our best to manage without them.

I also think there shouldn't be fee-paying hospitals, public libraries, countryside parks, dentists, opticians, social services, museums, art galleries, universities, fresh air, rivers, mountain views ...

Hairdressers, plumbers, car showrooms, greengrocers, fishmongers ... OK. But some things are too important to leave to the market. Some things ought not to be for sale to the highest bidder.

I know it's a dream, pretty much. But some day ...

So what about cosmetic dental work. Do you think we should all be able to get that free of charge?

What about universities that offer post-grad courses that lead to high paying jobs in the private sector such as law? Should the taxpayer be picking up the cost rather than the city law firms?

What free glasses do I get from the optician? Can I have the designer ones that I usually pay for or am I not allowed those anymore?

What about if I want surgery that the NHS classes as cosmetic?

This!

Absolutely. The best option would be that a high quality education is available free to every child, which meets the specific needs of every child, where teachers are paid appropriately for their expertise, behaviour and engagement is excellent. However, until that is genuinely the case, people have to be allowed to seek out the best option for their child.

The current thought is that by forcing more people into it, that will someone make it better. Surely it would be better to improve it to the point where people don't feel the need to use private schools?

The way to improve education surely is finding and that doesn’t mean the need to pull more from private to increase state burden.

Since rolls are falling what if politicians simply upped funding per pupil in state which wouldn’t actually increase education spend

Rolls are falling, but SEN spend is rising quickly. With a standard school place costing around 6k, and some special school places costing upwards of 100k, a fall in numbers doesn't necessarily mean a fall in costs. Councils are shifting millions from mainstream to SEN budgets just to try to balance their books.

It is partly about funding, but it's also about attitudes and engagement. When children are starting school not toilet trained (with no medical reason), unable to dress or feed themselves, an increase in funding doesn't even cover the extra support for these children - schools need a lot more money now than 5 years ago, to provide the same standard of provision, we are going backwards rather than forwards. So whilst I'm not a fan of private schools in general, I absolutely don't blame parents for looking for alternatives.

I think is smugness is premature. The impact won't be known for a while yet - most parents would not move their child mid year if they could avoid it.

Considering there is a current thread running on one of the education boards about a London 6th form that had 6,500 applicants this year, and has given 1,200 provisional offers with only 275 places available, I think it is extremely premature.

Yes so those who struggle to keep dc with SEN in private let them, don’t put on 20% and make them switch to state.

My (state educated) brain struggles to understand how anyone can morally support this policy for equity reasons? Equity relates to each individual child being viewed separately, rather all being put in same 'box' for the 'greater good'.

Equity is the concept that people need different things ( in this case a wide range of educational options tailored to their individual needs) to try to acheive a broadly similar outcome. How does a system which makes it more financially challenging for a family to get a child in an educational setting which better meets their child's needs improve this?

I think people may have different views on this based on experiences. State couldnt meet my brothers needs when I was growing up, my parents tried various schools, asked for help, but none came. We were definitely not rich growing up, both my parents grew up in poverty, in 1960's, where benefits where very limited, both left school at 15 as had to work to pay into household. But they could see his situation was desperate, he was self harming and bring beaten daily in his state school, as he didnt 'fit in', likeky due to ND. So my mum worked nights to scrape enough money together to pay for a charity run private school, where classes were smaller, pressure was less, and he did OK. Not great, he works a minimum wage job now, but he got through with his mental health broadly intact. This call to abolish private schools is cruel, until suitable state school places are available for every child.

I can't help feeling that those who blithely call for the abolition of private education and are gleeful about what they see as everyone having the same options must be in the privileged position of having neurotypical children with no SEN in the vicinity of a selection of state schools that manage to cater for all - and are probably those who successfully navigated education themselves.

They can therefore afford the time to be bitter about Hogwarts-esque chapels and libraries and teachers who take the time to prep the kids for their Oxbridge interviews in between Latin class and directing the Greek Tragedy drama group.

Their attempts to ensure a few less get that means many more won't get the basic help they need to come out with mental health intact let alone qualifications as currently overstretched resources are going to break more than they have already.

Absolutely this. My son wasn’t offered a mainstream state education for three years until we got him into an independent special school funded by the LA. During those three years, I could either give up my job to home ed or find a private school which would take him. He passed two GCSEs and will never live fully independently. I wish he’d had the good fortune to attend our local state schools, take and pass 5+ GCSEs, take A levels or BTECs, and go on to have a normal independent life. I am rather fed up with the spite from those who have no idea what it’s like being a young person living with multiple disabilities in the current education system, or being their parent and trying to access them some sort of basic education.

Fair points well made

Absolutely. This concept that private schools are all Hugo's and Henrietta's who don't want their children to mix with the 'riff raff' is ridiculously wrong.

A small number will be of course, but the vast majority will be either children with SEN or SEMH whose needs are not adequately met in mainstream but not felt to be quite severe enough for special schools, or people for whom their state school option is a failing school, and they want to give their child a better opportunity than that. Very few think 'I will pay 25k+ every year to go to private school despite having an excellent suitable state school on my doorstep'. Im sure they would much rather spend that on their house, or holidays, or not having to do loads of overtime or take out loans to afford it.

Morally I think it's terrible that private schools are needed, but the reality is that they are. Blame the neglectful governments and the parents that are making it so much harder for schools to do their job, not the parents fighting for the best for their children. Private schools are the symptom of the issues with our education system, not the cause.

I don't think that any government (ever) has had any idea about how to provide appropriately for SEN children. With numbers on the rise and Britain's economy going rapidly down the pan, I don't expect this to change. They don't know what they'd want to do, even if they had unlimited cash

This certainly describes most of the people I know in real life who are vehemently against private schools.

The vitriol on here from both sides and the unwillingness to see the issue from anywhere other than our own, self-interested, bunkered perspective is really symptomatic of the way the country has been going since...well, since Brexit really.

Everyone accuses people holding different opinions of poor motivation: jealousy, spite, self-interest, privilege-seeking... and there's scorn for people who's children aren't SEN

People can just have different views without being bad people

I think anyone who refuses to accept the reality of what private schools actually are as opposed to what they think they are and is pleased to see sen kids struggle or refuse to see that just because their kid did well at state not everyone can is not necessarily a nice person.

Nobody is showing any glee about the shit state of many State schools though are they?
And if anyone called State School DC and Parents names there would be outrage
"Ha ha, Little Jaxon and Jacey-Mai will just have to suck it up"