‘Game the system’ disability benefits

[Tomatochocolate]

WTF
just read a bbc article about welfare reforms

Apparently ministers think that it’s an incentive to claim disability benefits as the incentive is no work commitments on UC. That claimants ‘game the system’

It’s a long process and really hard to get awarded dla or pip. It’s not just ticking a box that says ‘I’m too sick to work’.

AIBU to think this is just horrific

My ds is severly disabled, it is very unlikely he will ever be in paid work and does require someone to be with him all the times while he is awake and two people when out and about. He has had hrm and hrc since he was three. We're getting ready for him to transition to adult services. We will need to claim pip for him and uc. I've been told that the LA will take the bulk and leave him with a £30 ish a week and the mobility component to cover his social care costs. We aren't allowed to charge him rent while he lives at home (he will have to move to a home or supported living when we can't care for him as we age) so no contribution to any bills and he still requires clothes, toiletries, food etc.

I do believe people game the system, they claim for their children and state the needs are higher than they really are.

The people that are really going to be hurt by this are families like ours and those who are incredibly disabled.

My son has similar needs you might not be able to charge him rent but I assume youveill be his Appontee use his PIP and UC accordingly?
My son has no clue about money.

Yes and I want to apply for deputyship for both.

I don't know how old your child us but when they go into adult services the LA will have a charging schedule for sc. It's well worth looking at in advance. There is a set amount they get to keep. You can then keep a tiny bit more for anything additional required by their disability (out LA have set amounts for this eg £2 for extra water used). They get left with a minimal amount for their food, clothes, activities, holidays, electric, gas etc but all that has to be paid.

I was trying to make the point that anyone severly disabled cannot game the system.

PIP has the least fraud of any benefit.

I agree. Those with very severe disabilities need the help and care. There are those that pretend they need care but don't and don't spend the money on care anyway. Perhaps a system whereby all PIP or DLA should be spent on care, getting around etc. Too many adhd kids who are out and about don't need care but get it anyway.

How do you make sure the money is spent on care?
PIP is to make someone's life easier, and it is up to them as to what that looks like.
Or do you want a voucher system?

I agree, the severely disabled cannot
..it's the mild ones who get help filling in the DLA forms that exaggerate that need looking into. People say you can't game it, I know of families that have done so.

Yep, exactly...

My DC gets DLA and initially started receiving it even before getting an ASD diagnosis. The only evidence I had was a private OT report and the initial paediatrician appointment report. This report is basically just a script of everything I told her. I imagine if people were so inclined, they could easily exaggerate or even make things up which can then be presented as 'evidence'.

I'm glad you said that about the organisation's that help us complete the forms. Most of us need and use them honestly!

Not only that, I deserve a brand new item that comes with a warranty etc.

That's because DLA is based on care need, not diagnosis.

Did the OT and paediatrician not meet your child or assess them at all? The report was all just purely based on what you told them?

It's very different to what I experienced. My evidence included OT, physio etc as they had worked with him and it was their professional opinion, nothing about what I had said.

Aye, and 75% are awarded on appeal. I work with people who make claims... Often awarded for very little evidence. I personally won't lie on a form, but I have to write X states... Y. If an award is made it'll run for up to 12mths prior to a face-to-face assessment normally. People will just say whatever their "mate said", and get awarded full PIP. It happens numerous times! The sad fact is that those genuinely needing it will often downplay what their conditions are, and get awarded nothing.

Sadly though there ARE those who game the system, and surely many of us are aware of this or know of someone who has done it. I saw an example quite recently. I was leaving the GPS surgery, and in front of me was a man leaning heavily on crutches and walking very slowly as if in pain. He reached his car in a Blue Badge space, and suddenly a miracle occurred. He threw the crutches in the boot, hopped into the driver's seat and drove off. I followed - not on purpose - to the nearby supermarket, and another Blue Badge space, where he then leapt out of the car and ran into the shop, not two minutes after leaving the surgery. Cheating scumbag.

The annoying thing is, when my movement disorder flares up, I twitch like there's no tomorrow. It's like Tourette's and Parkinson's disease going berserk- the weird grimacing, fingers wriggling, mouth and face movements, swaying from side to side, making sounds i don't want to anf can't help... but obviously it isn't something that is severe all the time - it waxes and wanes with stress, lack of sleep, hormones, and other triggers - but the unpredictability of it means that a PIP assessment is useless.

An assessment for the PIP application a few years ago was useless, because the nurse who visited saw a "normal" looking person, moving around performing tasks competently with cognitive ease.

They didn't see me after a huge flare up during the post natal period after my youngest daughter was born, where I didn't stop twitching non-stop for months. I could fo basic tasks and look after my children but it was exhausting, both physically and mentally.

I'd love for the criteria to change so that people with chronic health conditions, like me, are given help - even if they health issues don't always affect their ability to fo everyday things. I'm probably living in cloud cuckoo land saying that though.

My mum has a cleaning company and one of her contracts is in a big office block in the city centre, where it regularly gets confused for where people go for PIP assessments (that building is a few blocks away).
She has been sat on reception chatting to the security when people have come up limping with a stick, and checking in to see someone for their assessment. When they are told it is the wrong building, and are pointed out where it actually is, many people have picked up their stick and walked out fine.
It would be funny if it was not so ridiculous, but keeping up that sort of appearance must be exhausting too. I would not wish to live like that.

They do.
There is a disabled child element on UC if your child gets DLA.
Although PIP and LCWRA are separate assessments you can use similar reasons to qualify for both.

It's not pocket change for me, it's an absolute essential and I'm grateful for it

Exactly! For me I find if I can do something one day I end up paying for it later. Plenty of things I can do but not do them.consistently . And when I last had to a PIP assessment was asking not just whether I could do them at all but whether I can do them consistently and safely. I have been so exhausted and hands shaking so much I have spilt boiling oil or water trying to prepare food on myself or have fallen. So I mentioned these and how often it happens. It's not just about "can you do something" at all. Many people with chronic issues also might work part time or full time or have kids but they have no "spoons" to can't clean their house to an acceptable level, or cook a meal. Money for a cleaner or pre prepared meals can be a Godsend.

@oviraptor21 in fairness the op was talking about PIP, UC and adults 'getting out of work'. Nothing to do with children or dla

Yes of course they met them.

The OT assessment was over an hour and part of the report was their clinical judgement, but the other part was again my reported concerns. The OT report was mainly sensory, so although there was some evidence, it didn't cover the whole of the DLA claim.

The paediatrician appointment was the initial 'fact-finding' consultation to decide whether my DC should be put on the ASD pathway. So although my DC was in the room, the whole point of the appointment was to take the developmental history, current concerns, etc. So although the report gave the paediatrician's initial impression and recommendation for a full ASD assessment, the majority was just a record of what I had said.

So the 'evidence' backing up what I wrote in the form was predominantly just my own account anyway.

Have a hell of a lot more evidence now 😬

There absolutely is people playing the system. And a lot more than you think. One of my old jobs was rife with it and they were all pretty open about it and told each other things to say/do to get it.

Literally this. Unless you’ve grew up around it you really have no idea the lengths people go to. I have family members who’ve had cosmetic surgery (boob and nose job) on the nhs because they know how to play it. It’s happening and it’s happening frequently, I wish people would stop trying to deny it.

I don't doubt there are some who swing the lead, I have seen stories in the papers about people cheating the system. How widespread it is I can't say. Maybe more than I thought.

I guess my concern is how do we define someone cheating the system? To me it would be someone claiming symptoms and issues they didn't have, or knowingly claiming they are less capable than they are. Or becoming so well that they don't need the extra money anymore and not reporting a change.

But someone saying they describe their worst day and emphasising that isn't cheating as long as they honest about how often it happens and don't lie when asked. If one isn't lying or omitting important into about savings they have or living with someone, I also wouldn't say that is cheating.

Going to CAB or FightBack or one of those Facebook groups to help you fill out the form so you can articulate what is going on for you and why you need it isn't cheating either unless you're being dishonest and knowingly claiming you're more disabled than you know you are.

Someone upthread mentioned a woman in a fibro group whose.doctor advised her to exercise more but she was afraid that being seen out walking would mean DWP would penalise her. I don't think that in itself is fraud unless this woman knows for a fact that her disability would disappear if she exercised or improve so much she wasn't limited in what she could do anymore. Now this may be the case, it may not. It may be that this woman will find she is more capable than she thought on taking her doctors advice. Or she may not be. But unless she has taken the doctors advice and has walked herself to the point she no longer is as disabled as she claims, and she is aware of that and is claiming as if she is still is severely incapacitated then I don't think we can assume she is gaming the system . It may be she has tried the advice but still has the same care or mobility needs. It may be she has been too scared to try and still believes she has them.

Of course we can say that she should take her doctors advice unless she knows it won't help, we can even go so far as to say she is wrong for still claiming when she doesn't know how able she might be, but I think calling it fraud is a stretch. One needs to have intention to game the system to be found guilty of doing so, surely?

That isn't."gaming the system" that's just helping people complete the form. Many people who are sick underestimate their difficulties, and adapt their lives in such a way it becomes their norm so they don't even think about it as anything special or worth mentioning. You also need to know what to write so that you meet the criteria - there's no point wittering on for ages about something that's irrelevant, for instance, not being able to keep your house clean, or that you need the money for x support. That's irrelevant for a PIP decision. However, if you can't clean your house because you have mobility difficulties then it's also likely that you are struggling to get washed or dressed, or to walk etc etc and talking about that (and doing so in a lot of detail) is relevant.

People also don't understand all the rules. Such as, you have to have the difficulty at least 50% of the time. So therefore knowing to use wording such as "Most of the time" or "more than 50% of the time" instead of "Sometimes" is helpful for the decision maker understanding that you meet this criteria.

I used to be a benefits adviser. I've seen more inadequately completed disability benefit forms that you've had hot dinners. Many people do not understand the criteria, or what DWP are looking for, and they also usually massively underestimate the things they are struggling with. To complete a firm properly, you need to understand the complex criteria, the law and case law. This is way beyond the scope of most "normal" individuals. It's especially difficult if you are claiming for a mental health condition. Getting help with all of this is not ."gaming the system" it's "navigating the system".

There’s a heck of lot of ableism on here.
Its quite sickening to read the posts where lots of people who have clearly never had the experience of filling out the very lengthy PIP/DLA forms.

Having to gather together any letters and all evidence to support you or your child’s claim.

The anxiety when waiting to find what particular set of hoops DWP would like you to jump through this time.

The stress of trying to fill the forms out and ensure they are sent back within the 6 week time frame.

If you need help or someone to fill the form out for you, the wait for getting that support is long, never able to get someone to come out a do the forms for months.
So having to ring for an extension on the six weeks return is pretty standard.

Then it’s dependant on who deals with your form, I have adult twins who have autism PDA, low muscle tone PTSD sensory issues communication difficulties .
No understanding of common dangers, aren’t able to learn from previous consequences and can’t leave the house on their own safely.

We have ring devices set up so I can see if one of them gets out the door or decides to go downstairs in the middle of the night.

Although they are identical in respect of their level and complexity of need, one renewal led to one of them getting the highest level as she always had done, her sister got high rate for care and low mobility rate, she had always got the highest level.

The forms were clearly looked at by two different decision makers.
I’ve been doing these forms for our family for over 25 years now and will always need to do so.

My husband was diagnosed with autism in 1999, we didn’t claim DLA for him as he managed life, though had some difficulties in some areas we didn’t feel the need to claim DLA for him then.

He was having a lot of tests and scans for some neurological problems.
The brain scan and lumber puncture to rule out MS and brain tumours, showed that he had both.
We did put in a claim then, you’d think that would be a pretty clear cut decision.
With all the recent medical letters scan results.
But no, he was given standard care and low mobility, he deteriorated over a two year period.

Our MacMillan nurse sent us the forms to put in for fast track as he was on end of life care, he got awarded high rate everything within a week.
They awarded it him for two years paid weekly.

So for the people who think our household are scamming lazy liars.
Maybe educate yourselves on the reality of life with disabilities, or be respectful and scroll passed the posts that offend you.

Theres a less than 5% fraud rate for disability benefits.
i know a lot of people who’s children have a valid claim but they are too anxious to apply, because of the stigma.

The judgmental attitude of family members, friends neighbours and colleagues and the clear envy that you’re getting something they can’t get.

I guess angry people need to get their anger out somehow maybe find somewhere where you can scream away some of it.

Maybe volunteer time and yourself to work with people that are in one of the marginalised minority groups.
My son and myself do volunteering, its good for us to show the world what we can do and that we do have value purpose and aspirations.