AIBU to not want to go to war

[TemporaryPosition]

It's expensive and it hurts and it helps nothing, it just puts innocent sons, brothers, fathers, uncles and friends through the meat grinder. The only people who benefit are those who make a fortune from selling weapons and are granted contracts for reconstruction.

Haven't we learnt anything? What happened to "never again".

AIBU to really really really not want to be involved in any war?

Yes, you are right @kungfoofighting ...you can be diplomatic and still present as a stong statesman.

Unless you're Trump, then you look weak and undiplomatic.

I was playing devil's advocate. It's interesting to see a revival of nationalism now when this time last year we were all part of the "citizens of the world" amorphous blob

I've missed a huge chunk of this thread so I am a bit lost.

Is the OP suggesting that it's ok to annex a country if there's a language or cultural overlap, or have I misunderstood that? What about things like laws, taxation and governance and concepts like democratic participation and a free press. Could these be considered cultural? I think so.

Wales, England and Scotland all have different cultures, but they also differ (widely in places) on very tangible things like education and healthcare.

The OP is just talking a load of crap and finding some way to disagree with any response they get, presumably to keep the thread showing in active

Ah I see. One of those! It did seem to be heading that way when I bailed out earlier.

Thank you!

You don’t seem to understand that being inclusive and part of a cultural melting pot doesn’t mean homogenising culture. We’re aiming for a nice salad, not a soup.

Again, I’ve never mentioned nationalism.

What did he say? Kent?

You don't have to say the words to be talking about a thing. A fierce defense of a people's collective identity as distinct from even their immediate neighbours. Open borders is the opposite of nationalism

Its not a good analogy. If we had areas that were historically Russian with ethnically Russian people and even leasing areas out to Russia - as far as I know none of this applies

I think it's clear that soup is what you get and salad doesn't work. Too many people think culture is "food, music and costume", that's really only the tip of an Iceberg. But it's not so much migration that destroys culture if that's what you think I'm driving at (although it is to an extent, what proportion of English people in a village do you need before it's an English village rather than a Scottish one) but liberalism and capitalism.

Ukraine passes language law, irritating president-elect and Russia
By Pavel Polityuk
April 25, 20195:49 PM GMT+1Updated 6 years ago

Item 1 of 6 Activists attend a rally to demand lawmakers vote for a law that grants special status to the Ukrainian language and introduces mandatory language requirements for public sector workers, in front of the parliament building in Kiev, Ukraine April 25, 2019. REUTERS/Gleb Garanich
[1/6]Activists attend a rally to demand lawmakers vote for a law that grants special status to the Ukrainian language and introduces mandatory language requirements for public sector workers, in front... Purchase Licensing Rights, opens new tab Read more

KIEV (Reuters) - Ukraine's parliament approved a law on Thursday that grants special status to the Ukrainian language and makes it mandatory for public sector workers, a move Russia described as divisive and said discriminated against Russian-speakers.
The law, which obliges all citizens to know the Ukrainian language and makes it a mandatory requirement for civil servants, soldiers, doctors, and teachers, was championed by outgoing President Petro Poroshenko.
He is expected to sign it into law before he leaves office in coming weeks after losing re-election on Sunday to Volodymyr Zelenskiy, an actor who mainly speaks Russian in public.
Ukrainian is the predominant language in western Ukraine, while Russian is predominant in much of the east. Both languages are spoken widely in the capital Kiev, and a large proportion of the population speaks both fluently.
Television is often bi-lingual, with talk show hosts and their guests slipping between the two languages, sometimes asking questions in one and answering them in another.
Language has become a much more sensitive issue since 2014, when a pro-Russian president was toppled in a popular revolt and Russia responded by annexing the Crimea region and backing a pro-Russian separatist uprising in the east.
The separatists argued in part that easterners were victims of growing discrimination against Russian-speakers. Some Ukrainian-speakers argue that the prominence of Russian is a legacy of the Soviet era that undermines Ukraine's identity.

(So if the Ukrainians believe speaking Russian undermines social solidarity and identity in Ukraine, forgive me for thinking being only able to speak Welsh in Wales does act as some kind of identity solvent)

The US is flat broke, the new administration is pulling out of all agreements, adding tariffs and desperately trying to rework their budget.
I would not expect troops or money and conversely expect lies and distortions as all ties and all agreements get overhauled.
I’d ask them to leave, and have no interest in watching politicians kiss ass.

I completely disagree. I live in the most culturally diverse city in the UK and we are definitely a salad, not a soup.

On any given day I can visit pockets of diasporas that offer an insight into their culture to me, as an outsider, and maintain links to their homeland for their own people.

Neither liberalism nor capitalism are incompatible with retaining cultural identity. The world can be both more open, with better communication, and hold multiple identities.

Bringing it back, once again, to Ukraine - if the people thought of themselves as Russian because it is their first language, or for whatever historical reasons you think they have, they would not be battling so fiercely and so bravely to resist the invasion.

For a very interesting and entertaining take on the importance of language as a marker of cultural identity, everyone should watch the brilliant Kneecap.

Sadly as per history war is common - this has been an unprecedented era, democratic capitalism has been stable and enduring. If we do go to war on a large scale it will be a fight for democracy. Things in favour of not having a war - much more educated population than we have ever had. For all his wrongs, Tony Blair pushed education - attainment went up, more spending per child etc.

But this is a very simplistic view and doesn’t fully take into account the history. The reason many people speak Russian as a first language in Ukraine is tied to their previous subjugation by Russia.

I don’t know the full history in that part of the world, but looking at the British Isles, one way England historically tried to subdue the nations was by outlawing their languages.

It is through the perseverance of some that these national languages survived and are on the rise - but do not conflate not being able to speak them with any lack of cultural identity or inherent ‘Welshness’, ‘Scottishness’ or ‘Irishness’.

Once English dominated the language spoken in schools, workplaces and communities, the traditional languages faltered. There are obvious, practical reasons for this which have nothing to do with any reduction or homogenisation of national identities.

No-one is arguing that language isn’t a hugely important part of culture - just how important is exemplified in legislation that places Welsh signs on everything and the insistence on Welsh speaking in certain roles. We eat chicken Kyivs not kievs now.

You seem to suggest that Welsh speakers are ‘more Welsh’ than English speakers. But what about other facets of Welsh culture?

Where does a Welsh speaker who hates rugby and can’t sing rank against someone with a beautiful voice and mean kick that only speaks English? (Apologies to my Welsh friends here, I’m trying to be simplistic).

Zelenkskyy speaks Russian as his first language but his actions suggest he most definitely does not identify as Russian.

You are very keen to dismiss what people are saying about what they see culture and identity as - but have not given any indication as to your own understanding of it - beyond ‘it doesn’t exist now’.

Sadly, I think democracy is dead. Without a free press, there is no informed electorate. Without an informed electorate, there can be no democracy.

Elon Musk controls the new ‘press’ (hate to use that word in association with social media, which has no checks, balances or integrity) in America (and across the western world). Murdock controls the old ‘press’. China, Russia control their own spheres of influence.

@TemporaryPosition I remember at the start of the war many Eastern Ukrainians living on the borders were quite relaxed about it. They saw the Russian troops as their “brothers” and genuinely believed the invaders would do them no harm.

The reality was that the Russians destroyed their towns, killed their husbands, raped their women, and opened fire on their cars as they tried to flee to safety with their children.

Now eastern Ukrainians are banned from speaking Ukrainian. They have had to surrender their Ukrainian passports. Every aspect of Ukrainian culture has been banned. It is illegal to own any Ukrainian literature. It has all been destroyed.

Brave teachers are risking their lives to give covert online Ukrainian literature and language lessons to their pupils during the night. This resistance is punishable by death.

I suspect that if you did a poll today, very few of these poor people would still consider themselves to be Russian.

You should see how men talk to each other on male dominated forums, it makes mumsnet arguments about who was unreasonable to not attend a wedding or a parking situation look like what it is, nothing.

Sadly, I think democracy is dead. Without a free press, there is no informed electorate. Without an informed electorate, there can be no democracy

Not dead, not yet, but there is a lot of truth in this.

IMO a successful democracy needs (1) a stable middle class (I.e. enough people invested in stability and with something tangible to lose if it all goes tits up!), (2) an educated population, (3) access to good quality information from different sources and (4) regulation to challenge and discourage inaccuracies in that information.

All of those are currently in jeopardy with (4) being almost entirely absent.

A free press is not, in itself, enough to ensure a well-informed electorate. You need regulation. It is democratic to allow people to share unpopular opinions and criticise our government. It is not democratic to allow them to deliberately share misinformation. To be clear, purposely misinforming the electorate is an anti-democratic act.

For all the failures of the self-regulated Independent Press Standards Organisation (and earlier Press Complaints Commission) the old legacy media did generally stop short of outright lying, so the damage has historically been limited.

Today, an ever-growing proportion of our electorate are getting all their information from completely unregulated sources.

In this country we instinctively shy away from regulation because it feels anti-democratic. However, when that regulation has the sole purpose of ensuring the electorate have factual information then it is quite the opposite.

For a long time I’ve felt issues with the press are at the heart of what is wrong with our current political system.

This was drawn into particularly sharp relief with Brexit.

Likewise with Murdoch boasting that he always decides (sorry ‘predicts’) if a party gets in or not.

Yes, and I find it very telling how many people are trying to conflate freedom of speech (the freedom to share ideas and opinions) with the freedom to publish misinformation without restriction or regulation.

These are two different things.

Very much so!

The Garden of England? Never!