Secretly Recorded by GP

[UPSETPATIENT]

I am seeking advice on a matter. I found out my accident that my GP recorded a telephone appointment without permission. I have complained to the practice and ICB, however they have not done anything. Does anybody have any advice or suggestions

I don't think that professionally your mh team would refuse to engage with your gp, however I don't think you want to hear anything that doesn't go along with your thinking. I have no idea what was in my post at 5 to 10 that was against the guidelines, but I think I'm 'out' from trying to help here.

The gp isn't sitting there deciding which calls to record or not record! They don't press a button on their phone to make it recorded. It's all done automatically through the computer. The GP probably never even actually thought about the fact that the call was being recorded it probably didn't even cross their mind.
Every firm I've worked for across virtually the last 20 years has recorded all calls. There is usually an automated message on inbound calls informing the caller but when making outbound calls I never have to inform them.

The only time calls are ever listened to is for "quality" where a call is selected at random by a manager to review how the staff member conducted themselves on the call, or should a complaint escalate and either the caller requests the recording or its found necessary to track it down to see who is lying etc.
You need highest privileges to be able to access call recordings most staff members do not have access to this and it can often be quite difficult to find the call that is needed they aren't named by caller it just has time and date and a random ID as the file name.

Every GP practice I have worked for has recorded all phone calls in case the patient complains, in order to have the recording instead of the patients word against the doctor about what was said.
Why has it being recorded upset you, if it has remained confidential?

I work in mental healthcare and did not know GPS record all calls. When I call my GP, it

Sorry idk how I posted early. Should say when I call my GP it warns me about recording for training/monitoring but when they call me eg for consultations it does not. Legally, they should be telling you at the start of consultations!

https://mdujournal.themdu.com/issue-archive/autumn-2019/all-calls-are-monitored

there are weird attitudes to the NHS in this country and evidenced on this thread. Medics don’t have a free pass to do what they want on the basis that you should be grateful to be given any medical care. This attitude is really damaging.

Luckily I only see this on MNs but yes it's so weird. I do think some posters just post to be contrary rather than actually believing it though.

One of those weird attitudes is that GP's are part of the NHS. They are not. They deliver services for the NHS but they are private businesses.

You're right. Very few people realise that GPs are private businesses and not part of the NHS.

I'm a GP. All out calls have been recorded now for the best part of 10 years. I don't decide who I record, all calls are recorded, I can't do anything to stop the recording or start it. It's just something the phones do. I don't listen back to the recordings unless required for medicolegal reasons, although I know calls are audited on a management level and that cases are checked at random to ensure patients are receiving good clinical care. There is an automated message when people telephone in informing them that calls are recorded but I don't know if everywhere does that.

Yes, you are correct, I do know that. I didn’t mention that in my post as they are still part of the NHS system. Knowing that they are in effect privately owned, may go some way to stopping this deferential attitude I see, so you are right to mention it.

soory edited to add that I see @EmmaMaria originally mentioned this.

You're right. Very few people realise that GPs are private businesses and not part of the NHS.

Yep, hence why it's even weirder that people with the weird attitudes to the NHS also have them about GPs! 😆

That’s an interesting link. I think that there is a case to be made that even if the practice mentions this in an online privacy document, this is not adequate and proportional when an OUTGOING call of clinical
sensitivity is considered and is not inline with GMC guidelines. The GP should tell the person on a call and check they are happy to proceed. Sounds like practices would be ok with an automated recording however it’s a technical challenge to have this on an outgoing call and an ‘inconvenience’ for the medic to remember to mention.

@K10f1 I know there are some mentions of GP wrong doing however I think the majority of references to ‘GP’ mean the ‘GP practice’ not the actual medic and know it isn’t in the medic’s gift to turn record on or off.

True, but GPs have to accept a lousy contract that no truly self employed person would ever sign up to. They don't have genuine freedom to do what they want.

I’m sorry but
1- if I have a message telling me all calls are recorded, I’ve always assumed it’s the calls to reception. Not GPs. If a call with a GP is recorded, THEY have to tell patients because it’s absolutely not obvious. It’s also in the GMC guidelines!
2- in the OP’s case, the GP rung so there was no recorded message. How was she supposed to know?

It very much feels like many of head banging conversations I’ve had with reception staff/HCP where they tell me ‘But if xyz happens, it’s obvious you should do abc’ as if I knew how the NHS works inside out as they do, knew guidelines, who does what or when you should move from care by a nurse to care by a GP.
Patients arent mind readers. Theyre not HCP or NHS staff. Stop expecting them to just know because it’s obvious to you!

Btw @K10f1 do you think patients understand that those calls can be listened to by whoever ‘to check the quality of care’?
Do you really think they know a random person will learn about their struggles?
Dont you think that if people knew, this would have an impact t on what they tell you, just like having a student in the room changes dynamics?

Im quite horrified to learn that this is what’s happening tbh.

I agree with the view. I personally never knew GP record conversations - I don't think it reasonable that patient should automatically know how the NHS functions. There have been other posters who work in other part of the NHS who are unaware that GP records conversations, which suggest it is not a widespread practice. I think there may have been at least two posters who work for the mental health services who have indicated they are unaware of GP recording conversation - my mental team stated the same.

The responses are interesting - I am curious why GP record patients and mental health services. For those who say it is to protect the GP, why don't mental health services have this need. I would have thought they are much more likely to have difficult encounters. I personally have seen more tricky encounters in a mental health service than in my GP. I don't think I have ever seen someone get upset in a GP setting.

I have just checked my GP website and nowhere on there does it say anything about calls being recorded. I think the recorded message when you phone in says something about all calls are recorded for training purposes, but it's been a while since I've phoned.
But I would never have thought my GP would have been recording our conversation. Like a pp said, I would expect my conversation with the receptionist to be recorded as they are more likely to have to deal with grumpy patients. If calls are recorded then are person appointments recorded?
But, as you said @UPSETPATIENT your GP called you and didn't tell you this was happening so I can understand why you are upset, especially since your other calls don't appear to have been.

Not where I work! Not where my husband works! Not where my daughter works! And consultations with my GP surgery are NOT recorded!

I don't think I have ever seen someone get upset in a GP setting

A great many people get upset in GP settings. All the time.

Believe me, people are abusive to GPs all the time. A colleague of mine was sent a knife in the post. We've had someone pour petrol over themselves in our waiting room and try to light a match.

How ridiculous of you. Of course you’re being unreasonable. Most GPs record conversations, it’s not just about you believe it or not.

The discussion you had was confidential. The GP will make the usual concise notes, then the recording will be deleted. Recording is made to protect the practice staff from abuse and malicious litigation. Also to monitor quality of clinical practice (the patient would not be identified during that, unless the patient made a complaint about the interaction they wanted investigating).

Medical secretary at a GP practice here. We record the calls that come in at reception and also if we phone out and a message says this as soon as the patient picks up the phone or as soon as the guys at reception do so the patient is aware. We don't record the calls in the doctors rooms the only time we do the patient is asked for their consent first as we are a training practice so our GP trainees do have to record a certain amount of calls to go over with their trainer (would be one of the GP partners) and part of the criteria is they can't all be the same kind of topic to see how the GP deals with different ailments, symptoms etc. These can also be video'd in the surgery at face to face appointments but again patient has to consent first. Our calls that we do record don't get added to patients file and get automatically deleted after 3 months.

I do think you are being a bit unreasonable, I don't know what you think the GP would be doing with it other than maybe to consult with a colleague or to maybe remind themselves while typing notes etc.

Also regarding PIP they usually write to the practice themselves and the patient has to sign a consent first. You can't just leave things out your medical record because you don't want them to know. It can be fraud if you are leaving stuff out that may impact how much benefits you get etc.

And this is the absolute crap doctors surgeries have to deal with rather than treating patients.

Calls are recorded and it says that when you book or before the call.

You are wasting GP surgery time etc.

There is some person out there wanting to speak to their doctor about something urgent but instead the doctor is being pulled up about this complaint.

Shame on you OP.

Also, does the prime minister know? With so much going on in the world right now this should clearly take top priority,