To wonder what will happen about the government's 'free' breakfast club proposal?!

[Redlocks30]

They have been talking a lot today about saving families £450 a year, but I just can't see how this is going to work?

They are paying 60p per child per day, which might pay for a Weetabix and a bit of toast, but doesn't take into account the staffing (and any energy costs) that this will require!

We already have a small school with a successful breakfast club running, with smallish numbers but all can sit down and eat together. Parents pay a reasonable amount for it and this pays for 1/2 members of staff, depending on numbers. If this was opened up to all parents as a free option, we simply wouldn't have enough space to put everyone in the hall-it would be mayhem.

The school budget doesn't have any spare cash in it for TA staffing costs (normally paid for by parents paying) so where are schools expected to find this money from?

Can tell you have never worked in a school. So many initiatives or schemes are promised without any actual logistical guidance or enough financial support. Invariably it's up to teachers and the few admin staff to work stuff out, it always funny enough includes extra work for no extra pay. Of course teachers want to know what the expectations are going to be in terms of their time, what other resources will have to be cut to balance the books. And you've highlighted the issue; decisions and commands are given by people who don't do the job, and those that actually do it are told to crack on and sort it, often with fuck all notice.

No they are literally not. You understand directed hours, and the headaches Headteachers have when directing teachers?

That's why existing support staff cover these.

As PP said, noone needs to understand how this is managed or budgeted. That's not their job. Free breakfast clubs really not a difficult roll-out for most schools, from an operational pov

You are wrong. Yes they are.

Ah yeah not their job to do what is actually now a job that falls in part to teachers, and will affect them in one way or another. Can tell you're nothing to do with education with the statement that it'll not been a difficult roll out operationally.

@Redlocks30 re: the £24k claim.

I think that poster has misinterpreted the numbers (or maybe Labour / the DfE have been deliberately obtuse...)

Start- up costs are a generous £1,599:

"Guidance sent to schools taking part in the pilots say they will receive a £500 set-up payment to cover equipment and materials as well as £1,099 for “start-up staffing costs” to cover the summer term. A payment will then be made in arrears, based on the number of pupils taking part."

Then:

"The DfE added that an average primary school with a 50% take-up would receive about £23,000 for a full year for an early adopter breakfast club."

But the £23k is just the 60p per day multiplied by an average number of children attending.

190 school days at 60p per child per day means that £23k works out at around 200 children.

So yes, it is very much the case that schools will receive funding of 60p per child per day, and that is it.

You are most welcome to come and work out the ops in our school.

We've signed up for the pilot to see if we can get the logistics to work.

The majority of our TAs simply cannot get into school for our 8.25 breakfast club start due to their own childcare commitments/bus timetables/preexisting jobs. The tiny bit of extra money isn't worth rearranging their lives for.

Our TAs do lunch cover, so no pool of MDSAs to call on.

Our cleaning is done by an external company, so no pool to call on.

Our site team already start work at 7.30am/8am.

What would be your solution?

Ahhh, right-that makes sense!

The breakfast club idea is very poorly thought out, and another typical "policy" brought in because the government thinks it ticks certain boxes. What they should put funding into the lunches already in place.

Currently, the government covers £2.53 per child for UFSMs, which is supposed to cover food, staff, and running of a kitchen costs. If the provider charges more than £2.53 then the shortfall has to come from the school budget, which is just not possible. With food and staffing costs going up and up, it's a no-win.

I used to work for a large non-profit school meals provider who are closing their doors within the next year. It just got worse with food prices going up, so the meal price either had to go up or portions got smaller. Staff were cut to the bone, putting them often in quite dangerous positions. You couldn't even accuse them of being greedy with profit because they were non-profit, but the government just chooses to focus on gimmicks such a breakfast clubs instead of properly funding the meals they already provide.

My DD’s first school has over 500 kids. Breakfast club does not exist, paid for wraparound does. This is full and has limited spaces. It is used by parents who work and need the additional child care. It’s £5 an hour. There is a waiting list. My DD has breakfast at home before going to wraparound.

At her school if a free breakfast club was offered it would either start later to save on staffing costs, therefore being no use to working parents anymore or be so in demand that the school couldn’t possibly run it as worse case is that 500 kids all turn up for it and need supervision!

I think the sentiment behind it is well meaning but agree that many schools already offer this and use PP funding to do so if they have high deprivation. Secondary school is different as the same supervision isn’t needed.

My DD’s school in a highly middle class area with many working and SAHP does not need a free breakfast club. Any family who needs to can speak to the school about help with the cost of wraparound if their child qualifies for PP funding. Why ‘fix’ something that at this school doesn’t need fixing?

I’m a labour voter by the way!

That's why existing support staff cover these

But our existing support staff don't start at 8am/8.15am when the breakfast club would start. If we wanted them to, then we would have to pay them. The 60p a child per day would not cover this on top of food.

So teachers will have to come in earlier and work a longer day to help with parents work choices

Then there's the setting up beforehand (and it wouldn't just be a small group anymore) and the clearing away/washing up. I'm sure TAs can't be spared from the classroom at 8.45am so they can finish clearing up breakfast club, they'll be expected to be in class as usual.

So teachers will have to come in earlier and work a longer day to help with parents work choices

I think the government would have to scrap the 1265 hours DT agreement if they expect that to happen which would cause all manner of problems!

Most teachers at pur school already come in from 7:10-7:30, that time is needed to get things done in the classroom. Any earlier and it would become ridiculous.

This sounds ideal - my son's school used to offer a piece of fruit everyday (free).
So you could in theory do breakfast at 9 - 9.15am as part of registration with toast/bagel, fruit and milk/juice. Any children who were in earlier as part of 'before school care' could wait to have their breakfasts with the others as a nice social thing. Older children could help out with prep (we used to have milk monitors in my day back in ancient times!).

Most teachers at pur school already come in from 7:10-7:30, that time is needed to get things done in the classroom. Any earlier and it would become ridiculous.

Absolutely-if anyone tried to make this time 'directed' then there would be huge pushbacks and probably widespread strikes which would bugger up 'childcare' on a much larger scale!

No they aren't! Think you need to go back and read the actual sums.

Oh fucking hell Redlocks, the naivety.

What's your job title?

No, Breakfast club is very unlikely to be teacher directed time. There will probably be a member of SLT overseeing it, because it's unlikely to be prioritised within classroom teacher's directed time. Or maybe it will be a TLR responsibility. But the operational staffing will be support staff.

TAs being "unable" to come in for 8am wouldn't be a barrier. The initial aim would be to seek flexible working and shift working hours through agreement. If that isn't fruitful though it's perfectly possible to change the hours of TAs whether they like it or not, if there's a clear business need for it. This would be a business need. Some TAs will leave as a result. You just advertise for the replacement with hours of work 8am-3pm (or whatever). noone is irreplaceable. And, sorry to say this, especially not support staff. Term time only jobs are coveted roles, replacements are not difficult to source.

This sounds ideal

Yes, it's all quite relaxed. School cook toasts bagels and delivers on a big plate. Children either take some or not. Everyone looks at a book as a morning 'job' in every class. I get my child who doesn't like to go to assembly to take back the big plate as we go to assembly. Done.

But you cannot direct teachers to do this: unions will be - quite rightly- up in arms. More unpaid work. Our TAs start at 8:30am. No one will do it. It’s totally unrealistic.

Children are in lessons from 8.45! At 9am we are teaching lessons for which children’s progress is measured.

If the teacher is the only adult in the room, who is making the good and cleaning up while the teacher teaches?

Accessible breakfast clubs are a laudable idea, but the government need to provide ongoing funding for staffing (to cook, supervise children, and clean up) , good and equipment.

Oh fucking hell Redlocks, the naivety.

How rude!

In a small school with no TLRs and only the deputy on SLT (who also has a class), that would then be down to the head.

We struggle to recruit TAs because of our location; it's certainly not an easy to fill role and is usually parents who accept the role because it allows them to not need wraparound care themselves.

I agree. Children should be ready to start lessons well fed - not start the school day with a late breakfast in the classroom. Whether this is achieved at home or by some kind of breakfast club, I don't mind. But the school day shouldn't be cut short because of this, and a trained teacher shouldn't have to spend their time acting as a meal supervisor. I can't imagine the faff of having to turn your classroom into a café then turn it back again to start lessons.

I'm glad I left teaching 4 years ago.

I had enough to do and think about in the mornings without serving food and drinks, remembering allergies and making sure vegan or allergic children got the correct food, wiping tables, dealing with messages from parents complaining about the food...

I used to arrive at 7.15am in order to set up for the day. Add in serving breakfast and those extra tasks?

It's a nice idea but it needs to be properly funded and staffed.

Lots of assumptions being made here, surely it makes sense for each individual school to sort out the detail about how it will staffed, how it can be booked what food provided etc.

As mentioned above it’s already happening in many schools so not beyond the capabilities of schools, just because you don’t know doesn’t mean all these things haven’t been sorted out or answered.

Also just because it’s there doesn’t mean that all or even most will use it. We use breakfast club 2 days a week and when we work from home the others 3 days we don’t use it, that won’t change when it becomes free. I’ll be on maternity leave shortly and won’t use it then unless it’s an emergency.

I agree with the person who said people love a good moan.