Scared of what labour will do

[Wantachangefor2024]

Is anyone else terrified of what labour will enforce. The tax on farmers. Will they means test pip? Will they tax state pension more? What else will they do and where will it all end. They ruthlessly without no care took away the winter fuel allowance. Means testing and taxing state pension would massively impact my family

Alexandra and I live in the same area, near Plymouth, so the Navy specifically is a very significant factor in the local economy. There is no escaping it. It both underpins the local economy and holds it back simultaneously. Your thoughts @Alexandra2001 ?

Alexandra2001
I think the annexing of Crimea in 2014 was a reason & a warning to at least plan for additional spend

'Real-terms spending has increased each year since 2016/17 ...'

Means-testing is notorious for costing more than it saves in most cases and then lowering tax revenues as well by creating new cliff-edges. It is almost always a terrible idea economically.

It is also exactly what you'd do if you wanted to abolish a service entirely: first you means-test it. Then the people paying to it (usually several times over, for everyone else) can't access it. So instead of being a universal public service of which those who earn more pay the majority it instead becomes simple redistribution and nothing else because those funding it cannot even access it when they need it. Public support for whatever it is evaporates and then you can cut the threshold or just let its value inflate away over time until it doesn't exist/ may as well not exist any more.

Be careful what you wish for.

I think the annexing of Crimea in 2014 was a reason & a warning to at least plan for additional spend, instead we went down the Brexit rabbit hole, that has cost 40 billion plus...

£45bn rax revenue per year now, and counting. Compounding annually.

Equivlent to almost the entire defence budget.

Or double the tax rises that Reeves imposed in autumn.

Nearly half of the education budget.

Imagine what could have been done with the nearly £500bn in tax revenues it has cost the UK so far. And the £800bn of so it has cost the rest of the economy (businesses, employees). And it'll continue year after year after year until we get a sane government.

But people said they wanted to be poorer, so 🤷🏻‍♀️ I guess they got their wish.

I'm from a navy tradition gong back to the 1800s... the running down of Devonport is criminal... it must be half the size it was back in the 80s... the UK has less frigates and destroyers than Japan, a similar island nation, we have just 14... 23 in 2010...

I don't know if the 'yard holds back the local economy, i'd have thought transport links do that, the A38 seems to be considered a country lane by many people from outside of the area.

I see Covid now being dragged up as an excuse the Tories didn't spend on defence... that really is weak considering how much was borrowed and utterly wasted on business support loans in particular.

Yes thats yet another disaster the Tories gave the UK... but far more important to focus on a CV....

Yes, you make a fair point. And I do strongly believe in services and benefits being available to all those who need them. Not necessarily on the basis of having paid in all ones life, because whether we are able to do this or not and to what extent, is not typically a matter of choice, but of circumstances and privilege. But on the basis of need. It's very difficult to argue that wealthy people need state benefits (by which I mean income, not health services) and the only way to stop adding to already healthy incomes from an almost empty public purse is means testing. Yes its expensive, so a cost/benefits analysis would need to be done before introducing it. Presumably its thought to be cost effective for benefits that are already MT.

For those unhappy we didn't vote Labour in some of the earlier rounds a poster reminded on Corbyn wanting to decommission Trident

We'd dodged a massively weakening move. Only France and UK have it in Europe

Its like Narnia on here sometimes.... but Corbyn...Apart from in 2017, when he was leader, he said this, repeated again in 2019... JC was a back bencher in 2015.....

Speaking during a campaign visit to Birmingham, Jeremy Corbyn said: “The manifesto makes it very clear that the Labour party has come to a decision and is committed to Trident
“We’re also going to look at the real security needs of this country on other areas such as cyber-security, which I think the attack on our NHS last week proved there needs to be some serious re-examination of our defences against those kinds of attacks"
A party spokesperson said: “Trident will be renewed come what may, the continuous at-sea deterrent"

Pity May Johnson & Sunak didn't improve our cyber security.

Economist on R4 today saying the UK, unlike Europe will struggle to borrow more for defence as our gilt yields are so high, sole reason - TRUSS....

2016 BBC

Mr Corbyn, a longstanding campaigner for nuclear disarmament, is at odds with many of his MPs over the future of the weapons system.

However, supporters of Mr Corbyn want to change it at the party conference later this year, arguing the weapons will never be used and its multi-billion pound cost cannot be justified.

Sounds great. Not.

Irrelevant, commitment to Trident and its replacement, was in both of Labours manifesto's in 2017 and 2019...

His own personal view bows to that of the PLP and the shadow cabinet.... Conf resolutions aren't binding.

But the salient point is, Labour weren't in power, it never happened.....

The record of the Conservatives however is dire on defence, as it is on most things, its shame their supporters cannot recognise these mistakes, otherwise they'll just keep repeating them.

At least Badenoch has acknowledged this, even if she struggles to actually name them.

Corbyn didn't win. Reading the BBC tf for that.

Plus the Hamas friends issue

Labour and Corbyn were in the wilderness for those years for good reason.

You are correct, so why bring Corbyn into the discussion at all? It's irrelevant.

Labour and Corbyn were in the wilderness for those years for good reason.

Let’s hope they get back there pronto. Or at least in 4 and a bit years.

The tories were bad on defence, but so were labour before them. Starmer has been dithering for months about committing to a date for 2.5%. Both parties reliably fail to put their money where their mouth is. It will be interesting to see where this money will be spent which is just as important, if not more so.

Long read, but this gives an overview of defence spending going back to John Major and the Peace Dividend.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/a-brief-look-at-the-british-defence-budget-in-the-1990s/

@Llttledrummergirl I said those bemoaning the last 14 years

If you wanted someone else to interrupt those years as the alternative it was him for a couple of GEs.

We dodged really poor security outcomes, which also means conservatives were in instead obviously

Tories slashed defence over their tenure.

Its not a record to be proud of.

We had 23 frigates/destroyers in 2010, now we have 14....

As late as 2021, the tories planned on reducing the number of the UKs main battle tank from 227 to 148...

Even in 2024, their plans were to reduce the infantry even below the historic lows of 18000.

Following the 2010 General Election, the new government instituted a new defence review. The ultimate conclusion of this process was to reduce the size of the British Army from approximately 102,000 to approximately 82,000 by 2020

They actually dropped numbers to 73,000

Dire.... We dogged nothing.

It always amuses me that posters can say "the left should stop harping on about the last 14 years" while harping on about Corbyn......

Yes and fantasy outcomes too!

Yes it is dire. Also dire under labour before them. The only reason this could possibly be about to change is because Starmer has been bounced into it by Trump.
If Trump had not been elected, the status quo would remain.

Those moaning about the BBC quotes below should let them know.

Sunak did pledge 2.5% before the GE

Starmer dropped down in that only now upping it again due to Trump

Labour didn't have a imperialistic Russia to deal with, the Tories did, 2014, Salisbury and 2021, yet continued to slash defence, right up to 2024 GE.

BBC article isn't Labours Manifesto, as try as some pp seem to want it to be.... as i said ... Fantasies...

If you keep going on about the last GEs over the last 14 years there's no getting away from the reality of the alternative...

It was someone you don't like mentioned. No getting around that

Sunak planned 2.5% by 2030... no idea how to fund it... given his previous record on defence spending since 2021, hollow promise.

However, you are right about Trump, he has up turned quite a few things.