Nurseries cannot charge extra to access free hours: updated guidance

[MidnightPatrol]

The DfE has updated their guidance to say while nurseries may ask for voluntary contributions towards nappies, food etc - they may not have mandatory top up fees to access free hours. Councils will have the power to fine providers who are asking parents to pay extra.

news.sky.com/story/amp/parents-must-not-pay-mandatory-extra-charges-to-access-free-childcare-government-says-13313166

This is surely only going to reduce access to free hours for the majority, and push up costs for those paying for unfunded hours? And quite possibly, lead to nurseries closing.

Other consequences which we are already seeing:

• Minimum attendance to access free hours (4 days for the 30 hours or 3 days for 15). I am not clear if this would be banned under the guidance.
• Nurseries not offering the free hours
• Unfunded hours becoming more expensive to offset

YABU - nurseries should not be able to charge extra
YANBU - nurseries need to be able to cover their costs

Given the funding is not enough to provide places, what exactly do the government expect the nurseries to do?

So the problems seems to be that people don't know where the money goes (but its obviously not on paint and bread).

Would it be more acceptable to parents if they got a bill that said the daily running cost per child (including rent, tax, staff costs, utilities, and "consumables",) then the subsidy from the government, then the residual as the "top up".

@Daisytails no, I don't think YOU are revolting, of course not. I think the climate you work in is appalling and doesn't work well for families or childcare workers. And I think the raw capitalist culture of mass childcare puts good childminders at a massive disadvantage, fwiw.

It is true you need to factor in additional staffing costs for annual leave and sickness cover. Nursery staff virtually always just get the statutory minimum in annual leave, very little sick leave is usually tolerated, and additional training is usually minimal. Stuff like safeguarding training would usually be done online.

the average annual turnover for a nursery in the UK is around £200,000, with a net profit of around £30,000 to £40,000.

https://nurseryconsultancyuk.co.uk/the-financial-benefits-and-challenges-of-starting-a-nursery/

People still wouldn’t get it. You’d get Sophie still moaning that the top-up is unreasonable because her 2 bed semi only costs £100/month to heat (because she benefits from a domestic energy price cap) and that she can feed her kids for £0.39p per day by buying yellow stickers at Lidl, so why can’t the nursery do the same?

You do know many parents run their own businesses?
And frankly nursery food is usually inferior to the food parents serve

That's a massive generalisation.
I used to go into about 40 Nurseries a year. the quality of food being served by those Nurseries that served food varied a lot.
Equally, the 'quality' of the food sent in by parents varied hugely too.

There's no way you can generalise.

@CarpetKnees fair enough about some parents.
I also used to go into many nurseries. Some of the menus sounded great, but most of the food in reality was basic.

Or just say they are not offering free hours places

Children under 3 and some of the children with SEN are on a higher ratio though. So they will need more staff and the extra funding is not much (although I haven't worked in childcare for 7 months but don't imagine it's changed much). They also have to pay the staff you don't see, cleaner, admin staff, cook,, etc.

Mine is exactly the same! It’s a lovely small
nursery. I pay nothing. One goes 30 free hours and the other 15. They give both DC breakfast and dinner.

Ive got no idea how.

You must be completely naive if you think a private business shouldn’t make any profit, and what you need to look at is how much they have spent to make £2 million profit. If there is no profit in it, there will be no nurseries at all. My wife and I are childminders and we look after four children, our heating is on full time and our electricity/gas bill in the south of England is £400 a month, as other people have said, childminders and nurseries are struggling with the cost of living crisis. And yet people think it’s okay for us to look after children at less than minimum age if they’re over three. We are self-employed and don’t think anyone should be telling us what we can charge for especially the government. If that is to be the case then we should be getting paid by the government for sick pay pension and holiday pay. Show me another industry where you are self-employed but the government tell you how much you can charge, it’s absolutely outrageous and we will leave the the profession that we love as it is just not viable to make ends meet.

Of course it can make profit, but my goodness there's a point where a rich nursery owner needs to stop pleading poverty! My kids' old nursery owner was literally a multi millionaire. Her house was a mansion. You should have seen the cars she drove. She was raking it in.... from parents paying £80 a day in nursery fees. But when the nursery had to close for a day due to roof repairs etc she'd still charge the parents the fees anyway (the general attitude was if you don't like it, find another nursery). When my child's funding finally kicked in at age 3, the 'top-up' fees were extortionate. All the parents were discussing it and trying to figure out if this was allowed. If someone questioned it, she was hugely hostile and again, suggested if the parent didn't want to pay, fine another nursery (knowing the other local nurseries were hugely subscribed). She has us all over a barrel and she knew it. I'm not saying all child-care providers are like this, but some really do exploit parents, and absolutely do rake it in. From the sounds of it this is nothing like you, but if you are going to accuse parents of being 'naive' about needing to make a profit, I will suggest that you yourself are naive about what some nursery owners are up to in exploring parents.

I don't think anyone begrudges childminders running as a business, or nurseries needing to make appropriate profits, but that is very different to a CEO exploiting hard working families, underpaying their hardworking staff and allowing risky adult ratios in order to line their own pockets.

This. Sadly exploitation is rife in this industry.

Yes the reason private nurseries struggle to keep qualified staff is they are usually paid just above the minimum wage, get statutory sick pay or are on zero hour contracts, and are treated like utter crap. The reason the staff stand with your child with their coats on, waiting for you to pick them up at 6pm when the nursery closes, is they only get paid till 6 pm. If you are late, they work for free.

Or in my nursery @JoyousGreyOrca if you are late picking up you get charged 1£ a minute - the money goes directly to the staff member who had to stay behind

It's £11 for under 2s, £8 for 2 year olds, £5 for 3-4 , that sort of amount. That is what the council get then they decide how much to pass on.

I can only guess the council don't pass it all on? These rates seem ok compared to local childcare costs. Local nurseries charge the same for any age child though.

My nursery emailed last night, conveniently nearly at the cut off for notifying them of changes, to say my fees for my daughter’s funded place are going up 172%. I had a panic attack. I’m a single mum on a low income, but not low enough for benefits as I have savings. I simply can’t afford it. They had the nerve to send a message with it saying they hoped parents would be pleased with the positive changes they saw to their fees. I’m guessing this is for 2s and under. My daughter turns 3 this month and the gvt funding drops 25%ish but because the ratios change to 1:8 or 1:13, they have lower staff costs. Going to attempt to discuss it with them but they are rubbish at communication. My daughter adores the 2 mornings a week she does and is extremely sociable. If I have to pull her out we still have to walk past her beloved nursery twice a day which will be very upsetting. I have no idea what to do
.

172%!!! Their spin is rather disingenuous and very thoughtless

And as predicted, “we are not talking about this with parents at this time, we have 300 children here, send another email and we may get back to you in a week or so”. NOT good enough.

That is also true! I imagine they've been inundated.

They had the nerve to send a message with it saying they hoped parents would be pleased with the positive changes they saw to their fees.

So, have some parents monthly bills gone down?

For the ones who just do funded hours probably yes - no more top up fees, just free hours and very expensive private hours.

This is the thing with the funded hours, it just puts the cost of childcare up for those who need it for actual childcare.
Want to send your child to a private nursery and use the funded hours for a few hours a day? Great for you. Need childcare through the week and not term time only? Well you just end up paying through the nose to subsidise the free hours for others!

I genuinely don’t understand what the issue is with offering the funded hours as a subsidy. It equates to £X per month but nursery 1 costs £Y per month and nursery 2 costs £Z per month and then just subtract the local authority amount off the bill at the end.

If you want a totally free nursery it should be limited to school nurseries imo.