Nurseries cannot charge extra to access free hours: updated guidance

[MidnightPatrol]

The DfE has updated their guidance to say while nurseries may ask for voluntary contributions towards nappies, food etc - they may not have mandatory top up fees to access free hours. Councils will have the power to fine providers who are asking parents to pay extra.

news.sky.com/story/amp/parents-must-not-pay-mandatory-extra-charges-to-access-free-childcare-government-says-13313166

This is surely only going to reduce access to free hours for the majority, and push up costs for those paying for unfunded hours? And quite possibly, lead to nurseries closing.

Other consequences which we are already seeing:

• Minimum attendance to access free hours (4 days for the 30 hours or 3 days for 15). I am not clear if this would be banned under the guidance.
• Nurseries not offering the free hours
• Unfunded hours becoming more expensive to offset

YABU - nurseries should not be able to charge extra
YANBU - nurseries need to be able to cover their costs

Given the funding is not enough to provide places, what exactly do the government expect the nurseries to do?

My child is over 2 so we get less than the funded hours this way, but it still reduces our bill a lot

Where is this nirvana where rent, food, staff, insurance, training, utilities, business rates, consumables, replacement toys enrichment activities, and maintenance can be covered by a hourly rate equal to the government funding ? It certainly isn’t anywhere near where we live!

Probably less than £12 for under 2s.
I get £9.60 for under 2s, £7.20 for 2s (both more than I charge) and £5.20 for 3+ (less than I charge).
The problem with private nurseries are that there are owners that want to make profits.

All nurseries should be state owned.

You will need two staff members minimum in a room, I also don’t think one staff member will be doing a full 11 hour shift (minus 1 hour for the lunch).

The younger children may receive more funding but their ratios are smaller too.

I think that your nursery receives extra funding somewhere. Are they a children’s centre?

Also with all due respect in London the rent will be a lot higher that where your nursery is.

What percentage of their turnover was that? If it’s 2.5mlllion profit on 5million turnover- yes that looks like a licence to print money.
If it’s 2.5 million on 250 million turnover it’s 1% profit and they’re probably lucky they didn’t fall into a loss.

I looked it up on council website and it was around £12 for under 2s. Our council funding was high though (London based) a lot of others were providing around £9 per hour like you said.

Either way, it's often similar to what nurseries charge, imo the nurseries shouldn't be charging top ups to make more profit

I'm a childminder - I don't charge a top up. However I barely scrape an income even working a 55 hour week by the time expenses go out I'm looking at a profit of about £6 per hour. I could earn more in tescos but I love my job.
I know childcare is expensive but frankly it's a fairly short period of time in your lives and it should be for the most precious thing in your life.

But that's not free at the point of access is it and so not how it's supposed to be done.

There will just be another way around it

mine gets something like 5.86 an hour - the hourly rate of the place is 11£ so it nowhere near covers it

so now the minimum number of days you can attend is 3 it’s only full days of 10 hours (35 hours a week) and you are charged year round - funding only covers 38weeks a year so it’s stretched to cover all 52 weeks (so something like 21 hours a week - sorry my maths isn’t great this evening after long day)

they also only allow the hours to be used over 5 days - so if you only go 3 days you can only use like 4 hours a day! So the parent is then charged for the rest of the hours that are not funded🤷‍♀️

half days or 4 hour days are not an option!

I think it’s a nonsense rule that doesn’t improve access at all. School nurseries can provide fully free places, private nurseries should be allowed to apply the finding and charge whatever else makes up the total cost of their fees.
As someone who needs full time childcare for each child it was so annoying trying to get my youngest a place in the nursery we already use because so many people were just trying to cash in on the free hours and wouldn’t have used a place otherwise!

And i can refuse to pay the sustainability charge? I guess also for older children who are potty trained they shouldn't charge for nappies and wipes in that. They need to itemise it for items we actually receive/use.

It’s not supposed to be free at the point of access. Childcare providers are private businesses, they don’t have to operate at a loss. It’s fair enough for them to not accept someone who is only going to use the ‘free hours’ and pay nothing additional because the funding doesn’t cover their rate.

@Completelyjo not according to our local authority- that's the wording in the contract we sign as a private business.

You can - but they can just make it more difficult for you. Only accept full time children / only spread the hours over 5 days but not have sessions as an option you must do full days
most private nurseries only offer full days

But that's not what the DFE statutory guidance says.

Disagree, parents should have the right to choose the childcare for their child. I choose to pay more for a nursery with good quality new facilities, a large garden, a free flow space etc.
I don’t want the limited provisions available at a state school nursery.

No it was £5.62 per hour for 3 and 4 year olds (where the ratio is usually 8 children per adult, so pretty sure £40+ per hour should cover the staffing etc!! And £7.95 for 2 Yr old funding per child per hour. Childcare providers love to tell everyone the money is nothing, it's not.

Yes but understand they'll just find another way. Either restricting hours or putting up other fees/ make it difficult for you.

I'm not seriously going to do it. Though I am at the point of disagreeing alot with the way the nursery are managing cost increases lately. Their fees are becoming unsustainable and are significantly above local market rates. We only have 6 months left so will suck it up till then. I don't expect them to be a functioning business within 5 years the way they're going.

Free hours is a joke imo. It's never worked. It's put day cares out of business and reduced childminders who don't want the hassle.

I think you're being naive about actual operating costs - it's not justva case of £15 an hour. NI and pension contributions, management costs, insurance, rent or mortgage, business rates....and profit. Nurseries are not being run as charities (for the most part).

I mean ours went up by 7% last year and seems same is happening again! But then minimum wage and NI has gone up as will the business rates this year! It’s all just not sustainable is it !! I think if the funding was even for 52 weeks rather than 38 that would be a good start ! Like most people need childcare 52 weeks a year right 🤪

The funded hours scheme sounds great and is a vote winner but it is grinding the EY into dust with nurseries closing around us left right and centre.

It is almost impossible to make a profit.

Hmmm. My son's old nursery owner was absolutely raking it in, then pleading poverty re why parents had to pay huge top up fees. She was a millionaire from the profits though. I can't say that's happening at all nurseries, but it was a gold mine for her. The money was going somewhere...

This makes very little sense. I don’t know how all nurseries do it because I only have experience in the setting my DD goes to (full private day nursery in Wales). A full day is £70 but for those age 3 and over with funded hours, it’s £11 per day. It’s a HUGE saving compared to full fees. Why would you not pay a small fee for consumables to ensure your child has a place at the childcare setting you’ve chosen? I think you can even do the tax free childcare on the top up fee as well, making it even cheaper. I don’t get the logic of trying to enforce this and those parents who complain!