Nurseries cannot charge extra to access free hours: updated guidance

[MidnightPatrol]

The DfE has updated their guidance to say while nurseries may ask for voluntary contributions towards nappies, food etc - they may not have mandatory top up fees to access free hours. Councils will have the power to fine providers who are asking parents to pay extra.

news.sky.com/story/amp/parents-must-not-pay-mandatory-extra-charges-to-access-free-childcare-government-says-13313166

This is surely only going to reduce access to free hours for the majority, and push up costs for those paying for unfunded hours? And quite possibly, lead to nurseries closing.

Other consequences which we are already seeing:

• Minimum attendance to access free hours (4 days for the 30 hours or 3 days for 15). I am not clear if this would be banned under the guidance.
• Nurseries not offering the free hours
• Unfunded hours becoming more expensive to offset

YABU - nurseries should not be able to charge extra
YANBU - nurseries need to be able to cover their costs

Given the funding is not enough to provide places, what exactly do the government expect the nurseries to do?

They should give parents to option to provide own nappies and food and milk or pay for the nursery to provide them

My child is older! So we don't get the full no of hours we're meant to - but our bill is still significantly reduced

Feedback today is that lots of providers will no longer be offering 3 year old funding or taking children on trips and outings because they will no longer be able to afford to. So sad for these children

But it’s an absolute faff for the staff. Every time a child needs changing they have to go and find their bag with their nappies and wipes in then put it back afterwards. Might only take an extra minute or two but multiply that by all the children, multiple times a day. It would be much easier to just have a a stash.

A great benefit of nursery is children eating healthy meals all together. I would hate to have some sending in their own packed lunch.

The changes to funding have made nursery more expensive for those who don’t receive any funding as the only price providers can control is the non funded hours. Which is fine if you’re receiving some funded and some not, but when you’re paying for all hours yourself (no funded hours or tax free childcare) the additional costs can really mount up. And these are often people already contributing more via taxes which in part pays for a scheme they can’t access.

It was always going to happen. And next I expect to see providers stopping accepting funding altogether, especially in areas where there are long waiting lists and a lack of childcare.

Parents need to support their providers, and pay all "optional" charges that are put forward pr you may find yourself without childcare pretty soon.

But it’s an absolute faff for the staff. Every time a child needs changing they have to go and find their bag with their nappies and wipes in then put it back afterwards. Might only take an extra minute or two but multiply that by all the children, multiple times a day. It would be much easier to just have a a stash.

Our nursery have always had you send in your own nappies. They have a set of pigeon holes in the nappy changing area, each labelled with a child, and their nappies and wipes go in there so there's no back and forth to bags, and if they're running low they can easily see, and just let you know. I don't think they even offer the option to pay and have them supply the nappies.
My eldest had quite sensitive skin and really struggled with nappy rash so we tried quite a few brands of wipes, so it was good to control it rather than the nursery using something different to home.

They do have a stash for if a child runs out and the parents haven't sent in more. When the parent does then send in more, they restock the stash from what the parent sends.

I really like our nursery and they've never had any mandatory extra charges/top up fees.

As a childminder I will be losing out by £2 per hour below my standard hourly fee once the children in my care reach the age of three.
If I am not allowed to make up that loss I will no longer be able to offer care over the age of three and there is great demand for my services currently.

Exactly how many people would take a wage cut of between £60 and £180 a week. Let alone continue the same level of work and provide from their wages the food, equipment etc.

It’s when people suggest, and I’ve seen this so many times, that you should just take on more school aged children to bridge the gap in funding. Why on earth should I take on older children, have more work, more stress and more usage of resources all to make up for the lack of funding of the early years? Why should I expect to double the children I care for in order to earn what I should on half the children? Many childminders purely work with EYFS for various reasons yet they’re expected to start caring for older children in the hopes they can make minimum wage otherwise they’re thought of as greedy. It’s bonkers!

I use to work in families information service, supporting families in accessing 2 and 3 year funding.

It has always been the case that extras must be voluntary and families should not be penalised for not paying for them (but must provide the extras themselves)

In the early days child care settings risked having their funding withdrawn if they did not adhere to this but over the years it appears to have slacken off.

Yes it has but the list is being tightened up. Parents are being encouraged to refuse it so more pressure is put on settings.
We are effectively employed by our LAs with no benefits of employment we don't even make minimum wage in some areas and are then supposed to buy materials and equipment from what we get.

@jannier I do sympathise, child care practitioners are screwed because they can't demand a higher fee from the government and they can't pay the bills on the fee the government pays. It's also unfair on the parents having their fees hiked up to substitute costs not everyone can afford it. And because the majority are entitled to free funding now child care practitioners can't afford to opt out.

There is no good solution.

Of course providers can opt out, there will be a lot of settings sadly folding in the coming months, and there will always be people that require childcare so they will be able to opt out of offering it and still fill places.

Similar on the Isle of Wight actually.

When my child went (he's only 7, so not long ago) there were no tops. He used the 30 hours, then anything over was charged in 15 minute increments. Only extras were meals if you wanted them.

Off course providers can opt out, in fact locally they already are . I have seen loads of comments from childminders who have already emailed the la advising they will not be offering funding from April going forward. Some are stopping all together, others are no longer offering the 3-4 year old funding. A few are only offer the 3-4 until September then stopping when the children they currently have go to school.

But the parents are paying less than they were when they couldn't claim funding so their costs are reduced either way. If the government called it subsidised there wouldn't be a problem the issue is the governments expecting private individuals to subsidise their policies effectively raising taxes to those individuals whilst stopping them increasing income. Added to the ridiculous costs like heating....my gas bill is £25 a day...needed to keep young children warm. I'm giving up next year. I'd be better off at Tesco's

Ours charges top ups and I'm happy paying them. They're a fantastic nursery and are bursting at the seams. They're expanding to meet demand. Yes there are some round here that don't charge extra but funnily enough they're the ones with spaces so I think it says it all. My eldest attended the same nursery and tbh with the funded hours I'm actually not paying much less for DS than I did when DD didn't have any funded hours. It would not surprise me if it phases out accepting the funded hours at some point and then bring their daily rates down.
Those kicking off about the top up fees will be the same ones moaning on here when they end up paying full whack as funded nurseries will cease to exist.

I don’t mind paying a top up charge but I think it needs to be reasonably.

my DD’s previous nursery charges £17 a meal (so three times a day) and £40 a week for a nappies and wipes and £70 a weeks for extras like trips to the park . Regardless of how much you’re in. That’s over £250 a week for 3 days on top of funding. We left and found an alternative that was much better, less children and the top ups were reasonable!

What I have always wished should happen is that the government put in X amount per month/term into a parents childcare account on the government gateway that corresponds with the amount of funding they give to settings for that child. That way a parent can choose to use that funding for whatever provider they choose and will have to just pay whatever that provider charges. It would then be the parents personal choice. Some providers may choose to only charge the funding amount, and that is their choice, others may charge more but it is purely down to the parents how they choose to spend the funding amount. The money could not be withdrawn and it can only be paid to a named provider through the portal.

It would stop a lot of issues all round. The LAs wouldn't take their little slice off, parents would have a genuine up front choice of where to spend that funding as settings can say our fee is X per hour or X per day

I agree.

It doesn't matter how many posters say they don't mind paying at present - under current policy it's wrong.

I think the policy was put in to be inclusive but it's now unsustainable.

This is generally the case. Nurseries are lucrative businesses, owners are coining it while whining about reducing profits. The whole childcare industry is revolting and is symptomatic of what happens when private enterprise monopolises what should be a public service.

How many nurseries finances have you looked into?

Not all nurseries. Big chains, yes. One off nurseries are no way coining it in.

Childminders definitely aren't coining it in. The already at a disadvantage against nurseries as they can only have a 3:1 ratio for under 4s while a nursery is 8:1 for 3+.

The whole childcare system is revolting? Does that mean as a childminder I’m revolting? Am I coining it in? The sad fact is, I’m struggling to earn minimum wage!

I don't kind paying top ups on one hand, but on the other, they're becoming ridiculous. We have to provide our own wipes, nappies etc., no option from nursery, but we pay £15/day for "consumables", so paper, pencils, craft materials and food. I don't know how much paint my child is using, but I can feed myself for less than £15/day, especially with what they're getting (cereal for breakfast, standard sandwiches/ crudites/ fruit for lunch and then an evening meal of curry/ casserole), and there's no option to pay less by sending in a packed lunch!

Now with two small ones in and both entitled to "free" hours, we are still paying £30/day even on the "free" days!