How to tackle DSD's living situation in her Mums house?

[Worried861]

By her own admission DSD 13 Mum has always kept a messy house, just one of those things. However I have lost count over the last year or so how many times DSD has lost something in her house and it is never seen again she always says it's lost in the clutter.

When we pick up or drop her off her Mum always shuts the front door and comes into the porch but yesterday she left it open and I saw into the hallway. The stairs are absolutely covered in stuff, I don't know how they walk up and down them. The floor could barely be seen in the hall.

DH spoke to DSD today and she said her Mum has been sleeping in her bed with her as Mums room "needs sorting out".

How on earth do we approach this? DSD is very protective of her Mum and has just said it's fine and they just need a cleaning day. I'm worried it's more serious.

You don't know how wrong you are.

Living with a hoarder is physically and mentally damaging.

Living with hoarding is horrible for a child. Those saying it’s not the OPs business - she cares about her DSD so of course it’s her business.

You can’t fix hoarding. ExW can get help if she wants to but it can take years /decades and DSD is a child who should have a clean space of her own.

So do/say whatever it takes to get DSD out and living with you OP. Get her stuff (or as much as possible) out and to your house. I do think you can present it to her mum and her as temporary until the house is cleaned up, with you and dh accepting (even if dsd and her mum don’t) that it will probably not happen.

It’s great you have a safe, clean space for DSD. She’ll need it as she gets older and realises that her DM priorities ’stuff’ over her DD’s wellbeing and comfort. Worst case scenario is that she will come and live with you and DH because she starts to hate her DM.
I’m an ACOH - adult child of a hoarder - so I have lived this. The shame of growing up in a hoarded home is crippling for me even now, with my own uncluttered home. And the blame put upon me and DB that the mess was our stuff - we both left home 20+ years ago and the house is at its most cluttered with rooms you simply cannot get into.
Hoarding is a mental illness and does need approaching carefully. But recovery is rare, if it ever happens.
Your DSD’s safety needs to be your priority. Chances are the kitchen, bathroom and other areas are hazardous with potential rodent infestation, mould and blocked fire exits. I really would involve SS, as an external agency takes some of the potential ‘blame’ away from you. An SS referral could easily have come from school or anyone involved in your DSD’s life, as she may have disclosed this to others too.
If you can afford it, I’d seriously think about getting your DSD some therapy too. The impact hoarding has on children is dramatic - they want to protect the one they love, but the anger at a life growing up in the hoard can be overwhelming.
Good luck OP.

It isn't an ideal situation. Rather than contacting SS, why doesn't your husband have a supportive conversation with DSD's mum? The mum may be going through a bad patch that has spiralled? Undiagnosed ADHD? Because of external factors which you may not be aware of, she may not know where to start in order to make changes. Being stuck in a rut made by MH can be awful for a lot of people & shame will stop them asking for help. She will be criticising herself more than anyone.

Why not say, very kindly, "We can see that you're struggling with this aspect of your life and we'd like to support you to benefit our daughter. We'd be happy to help you tidy and sort through things - no judgements made. Please let us know if there is anything else we can help with?"

All past squabbles placed behind you. This way, your DSD will see that you are all a team who love her, and will work together for her.

Are you in a financial position where DH could offer to hire a professional declutterer to go through the house to help his ex get it sorted?

The child’s needs should always be put first and their voice prioritised.

As the extent of the hoarding is unknown and it is unclear if basic care needs are able to be met, there needs to be some intervention. That house needs to be assessed for any risks re fire and other hazards.

If it is Hoarding it is one of the most complex issues to address from a clinical perspective.

The mom needs extensive support and the OP and her DH maybe well out of there depth

But all of the above is irrelevant unless someone is able to assess the house and reasons for it.

If Hoarding is a result of MH and being quite unwell this can increase the persons risk - they need to understand the problem first

I’m a social worker and I don’t think you have quite enough information yet to go straight to ss. It might be very messy/disorganised/ cluttered but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s dirty, unsafe or unsanitary.
Can you get dsd to give you more detail about what it’s like? She might not be willing to be fully be open but questions to ask (and certainly things I’d be looking for when considering if a house is unsuitable for a child) would be - is there actual rubbish lying around (food wrappers, used takeaway containers, cig butts etc)? Are surfaces clean especially in the bathroom and those used for food prep? Is the toilet and bath/shower clean and usable? (Actual dirt, not just dust or mildew). Are floor surfaces and stairs safe to walk on? Does the child have their own safe space free of rubbish and a clean bed and bedding? Are there insects or other pests? Is there damp? Mouldy food on plates/pots? Does the heating and electric work?
Based on what dsd says, and if OH and ex have a reasonable relationship I’d be asking to see inside the house or finding some reason to get in there. If she refuses, and you are sufficiently worried from what dad tells you (or you have reason to believe she’s holding stuff back) or you get in and see evidence of the above, then I’d go to ss.
School can be helpful in these situations too. They will be able to tell your OH if they have any other worries for dsd and could raise the alarm with ss.
Also, what is dsd presentation like?
Does she at times look scruffy or smell bad?
Doesn’t come with clean clothes or regularly claims she wasn’t able to find essentials?
Says she doesn’t have access to toiletries and hygiene products?
Feels too embarrassed to have friends round?
Talks about not being able to bathe or shower and rushes to do this at your house?
These would all be red flags.

That's terrible advice. Kids often struggle to raise problems out of lack of knowledge or misguided loyalty, to say ignore it unless she raises it when you know there's a major issue is neglect.

Your partner needs to speak to his ex.
Don't go jumping straight in, it's not up to you to fix

You could try the local Fire Safety Officer, it sounds like the place is a fire trap.

I would contact Hoarding UK - a charity which may be able to help and advise you before making any further move on what to do. I am sure they will have come across this before.

Someone I love is a hoarder, to the point it really impacted their mental health, and it does impact every aspect of their life - home, which they've had to move out, as well as friendships and work (both have been impacted by hoarding).

The trick I've found is to be supportive, offer to help, but also we aware that there will be shame and you may not be taken up on the offer. Small steps are the way forwards - there's several decluttering pros that give a lot of information and it's about having a person who can break this down into tiny steps for the person who is hoarding, whilst also creating a maintenance routine.

Do you have the financial means to help pay for a professional decluttering session, or block of sessions?

Refer to social services.

It's a risk
It's a fire hazard for one of they can't navigate the stairs in daylight when not under stress
She's neglecting the child by allowing her to live in an unsafe place

The hoarding UK website actually has an assessment link on the different stages of hoarding and what rooms may look like which could help you understand the scale of the issue from your SD without seeing the house.

Social services as last resort, as others have said it will break the bond between you if it ever gets out it was you that reported it.

It sounds like possible depression/ overwhelm/undiagnosed mental health issues. Could you pay for a professional de-clutter then perhaps pay for a weekly cleaner to keep on top of things? She might be reluctant but I'd insist for your DSD's own health and safety.

If all else fails then yes, report to SS.

If you genuinely believe that things are only a problem once kids tell you about it then I hope you don't have children.

I think this is very delicate. I would not say anything. I would make an anonymous report to social services.

Small steps are the way forwards - there's several decluttering pros that give a lot of information and it's about having a person who can break this down into tiny steps for the person who is hoarding, whilst also creating a maintenance routine.

None of these suggestions - sensitive conversations with the ex, websites, professional declutterers, small steps - prioritise dsd, who is the most important person here.

She has said that her mother sleeps in her bed with her because she can't use her own room and own bed. Any teachers here, would that warrant a safeguarding referral if a 13yo girl disclosed it to you?

Yes. As a teacher I would definitely be following it up. Are they in a single bed as it would be uncomfortable and neither would be getting enough rest?

how long before the kid’s room is cluttered and both have nowhere to sleep.

It sucks but safeguarding is everyone’s responsibility and you know about it now. Yes you might be classed as the bad guy but sounds like you are the only adult.

if something happened like a fire or because there is so much stuff, it fell and hurt DSD then you wouldn’t forgive yourself.

you can speak to the family support officer or safeguarding lead at the school and get their next steps as they can tell you who to report to.

the mum needs help even though she might not think so. You aren’t trying to take her kid etc but ensure it is safe. Where do they eat? What is the state of the kitchen? Don’t leave it up to DH as they will likely just wring their hands so as not to upset anyone.

social services don’t just take kids away but engage with families to support them to remain together.

the dsd is probably acting as a young carer for her mum as well.

They do prioritise DSD as they improve her living conditions...

They are researched and proven ways to work - SS involvement is likely to cause a huge amount of tension and angst that may go on forever, other methods should be attempted first.

Definitely see if you can help first. Be non confrontational, this is a mental health issue and obviously you all want what's best for your step daughter. If it comes to it, you may need to be the person to make the next steps for referrals. This is because safeguarding is everyone's business and that child needs an adult to advocate for her.
Starting with the safeguarding lead at school could be a good start?

This sounds so hard for you and your partner, I can't imagine.

DSD today and she said her Mum has been sleeping in her bed with her as Mums room "needs sorting out".
this is not acceptable. Your DH needs to be firm and say she'll be at your house until her mothers home is in a fit state to accommodate her daughter.

There are a lot of risk factors for children of hoarders. You could start with a sensitive conversation with her mother encouraging her to seek help. Just clearing the hoard is unlikely to resolve the issue long term. Her mum needs some therapy and support to address it fully. Your dsd also needs some support. Contacting social services would not be the worst thing that could happen. It may be the catalyst for getting some help.

^^ I think this is probably the route to take. A bit more investigation into the state of the house might be good (e.g. is there somewhere to do homework, are the kitchen and bathroom sanitary, is she able to invite friends over) but co-sleeping because her mum's room is too messy is a red line crossed already. Your DH needs to take the responsibility for covering up for her mum away from your DSD and tell her that she can't stay with her mum until her mum can get help. Pint out to her that it isn't her fault but her mum is sick and she can't stay with her for the time being.

If social services need to be brought in to give more weight to the need for DD to not stay there, then do so, but if she will stay with you without this then I probably wouldn't unless the Ex wants that sort of help.

Make arrangements for DSD to visit and meet up with her mum, or for her mum to come to yours to see her, but DSD needs to sleep and keep her stuff at your house. DH should talk to his ex (assuming they have a civil relationship), try and to get her to accept help, but his main goal needs to be to give his DD the stability she needs.

Being too soft footed about this will give DSD the impression this is okay. Not normal exactly, she knows it's not normal because she's trying to hide it, but she probably has no idea how bad it is for her. She'll realise when she's older and wonder why her Dad let it go on like that.