Would you pay more tax to boost defence spending

[trainermush]

Obviously we are now in a more precarious position & defence spending has been underfunded for some time. RR had just said we need to spend more money & she will but without breaking her fiscal rules,

"So we will stick to our fiscal rules. But recognising the priority of defence spending in the world that we live in today means that we will have to make difficult choices so that we can spend that money that is needed to keep our country safe."

Mulling it over & even though I think I pay enough tax I would pay more each month towards this (cut back in other areas) as opposed to labour cutting back on something else. I guess thinking about my dc & other loved ones has changed my mind somewhat now things appear more bleak. What do others think?
Conscription of young people terrifies me even though my dc are too young.

...and lots of things are not, VAT is a regressive tax.

VAT receipts increased by £9 billion in2022/23... it does not need to be increased any more.

@Alexandra2001

The UK defence budget is £56 billion (2.3% GDP). The annual spend on our nuclear deterrent is £3 billion or approximately 6% of the defence budget.

If you removed the nuclear deterrent, which would seem foolhardy in the face of a resurgent Russia, then the UK defence budget drops to £53 billion or 2.2%.

Meanwhile Spain is spending just 1.28%, but "plans" to get to 2% by 2029. This is both freeloading on other NATO countries, appeasement and throwing Ukraine under the bus.

www.politico.eu/article/eu-wide-borrowing-for-defense-a-no-brainer-says-spains-finance-minister/

No one is suggesting scrapping it but current replacement plans are north of 100billion... & its not deterring Russia.

Defence spend at present is to get to 2.5% by 2029, not a million miles away from Spain's 2.0% in the same time scale.... we dont have the manufacturing capacity or troop numbers to get to be able to spend much more.... unless we buy more weapons from the US, perhaps not a great idea... Spain and others, are in the same boat.

Are you suggesting little Spain holds the future of Ukraine in its hands?

Ukraine needs the USA, it will need to cut a deal on minerals, Europe, with the best will in the world, cannot wait for Spain or anyone else to increase spend.

Russia will eventually over run Ukraine without US arms and far more of them than Biden gave.... an unlikely prospect... though with Trump, who knows!!!

This. I cannot understand why people are making surprised pikachu faces now at the events of the last few weeks (days?).

The issue is not even £££ spending, OP - although I agree that it has to be increased. Arming up Ukraine properly in time would have been both a cheaper and safer option, but Europe did not want to do it and now will reap the consequences.

There are scarier issues, e.g. UK's nuclear deterrent not being operational without US approval. There has been a discussion in parliament about it, I believe, and the conclusion was "oh but why on earth the US would object if Britain is under attack, we're best buddies?". Well, welcome to the new world. Better find some rare earth minerals quick.

@Alexandra2001

"Are you suggesting little Spain holds the future of Ukraine in its hands?

Ukraine needs the USA, it will need to cut a deal on minerals, Europe, with the best will in the world, cannot wait for Spain or anyone else to increase spend."

I guess what I am trying to explain (and probably not doing a very good job of it!) is that I am really worried that time is fast running out for Ukraine and that it is going to be handed a stitch up deal from Trump and Putin.

I'm fairly active on the Ukraine threads and the current popular sentiment is that it's all the fault of Trump and he's a bad man. Now I don't disagree with either point but personally I thought that more than 12 months ago, that I'm not surprised he has said this and that he threatened to do this 12 months ago.

Saying that it's all the fault of Trump is not going to save Ukraine. Criticising Trump's actions are not going to change his or Putin's minds.

The only thing that could be done is for European NATO countries to rapidly increase both their own military spending and the amount they send to Ukraine in order to make up the shortfall from the US. That way if Zelensky gets presented with a stitch up deal from Trump / Putin he at least has a choice of saying give me a better deal or I'll keep fighting.

But recognise the difficulties you laid out about European NATO countries increasing their military spending in the short term but the only other option is to give up on Ukraine as a "lost cause" which I really don't want to do.

Well I've been alive a long time. So a few years feels like a rapid rate of change to me. Even the annexe bit of crimea feels really recent.

I'm not a huge follower of politics or defence, but if you'd asked me in my twenties, will we be on the opposite side to the us, I'd have though, that's not likely.

You won't have amphibious landing ships immediately. You will have cyber attacks on banking and energy systems, blackouts, riots. Supply chain disruption, terrorist attacks fuelled by Russian money. When the ships come, they will seem just another minor problem.

The only hope is that Merz is able to shake Europe into action and the UK joins the cause too.

I'm now paying an extra 10k pa on school, so no. Education was my priority and I have nothing else left.

@zendeveloper I didn't know that about nuclear. That is concerning

The last few days have been strategically a lot, so much going on.

Merz statements on the US are also bold

Not sure how I feel about this will we or won't we work with the US, but even Zelenskyy knows they are needed

I’d happily pay more tax to ensure we had a good military that was actually capable of defending the country , why anyone would not is honestly a mystery, would you prefer some other country just walk in and take over

No, I wouldn’t. The government can stop wasting our money and fund it from that. Stop giving so much foreign aid & stop chucking millions into the NHS for it to be wasted would be a start.

From what? Even if we boosted our defence spending it wouldn't be enough to "defend ourselves" unless we were invaded by Liechtenstein. It is a fiction that we could defend ourselves against attack from any of the actual likely candidates. I would rather we declared neutrality and spent the money on things that benefit our citizens rather than things that kill.

Current statements from Merz are quite alarming, but I am glad if it is the beginning of waking up. This morning he said he's not sure NATO will even exist by June (next NATO summit time), and he's hardly a hysterical populist figure.

@zendeveloper yes it's good he's seeing the reality.

We're really tied to the US on security as your pp shows. Annoyingly some ex security expert asked what next and how compromised we are now didn't answer and just said it's 84 years etc

We're not aligned in Europe on troops in Ukraine even if only 30k and it'll only happen with the US. So I'm not sure where that stands if we're to be independent

I think, perhaps, we are actually on the same page....

I ve argued repeatedly, over at least 12months, that Trump would be a disaster for both Ukraine and Europe, he has always criticised NATO and it wouldn't matter if Europe spent 10% on Defence, he'd still feel the same.

As i said, Ukraine needs a deal with the US, how that will pan out, i don't know, it seems that the US considers monies already spent as a loan.... Trump has Zelensky over a barrel, bear in mind too that much of the minerals they have is in occupied territory.

I just don't believe that Europe spending 2.5 to 3% in 5 years time, on Defence, wont help Ukraine and wont change Trumps mind... he is a fan of Putin, for whatever reason.

We need to urgently up production of ammunition and artillery shells, UA is desperately short.

"Funny" listening to ex Tory ministers telling Labour to spend 3.4% on defence, like Hunt is, he was chancellor for much of the time Russia has been in Ukraine, yet did next to nothing on Defence spend.

@Alexandra2001

"Funny" listening to ex Tory ministers telling Labour to spend 3.4% on defence, like Hunt is, he was chancellor for much of the time Russia has been in Ukraine, yet did next to nothing on Defence spend."

Well I guess he (and most of the other European NATO countries) wrongly assumed that they didn't need to spend more on defence because well the US would be paying for it- despite Trump threatening more than 12 months ago to pull the plug.

Yep.. seen the shrinking of Devonport over the last few years, housing, waste incineration plant, hospitality..... absolute travesty.

The Tories overall cut spending over the time in office.

I believe Obama was the first POTUS to warn Europe....

@Alexandra2001

"I believe Obama was the first POTUS to warn Europe..."

Actually it was Kennedy in the early 60s. So I guess the European NATO countries can't say they didn't have enough warning!

Oh come on... 60 plus years is not a enough notice..... be fair here.

Not content with letting Europe and the UK sort their own defence out, it now seems good time for US companies to take over British defence companies. Bains has offered £1 billion for Chemring, which has been rejected. We may see - and I hope it is seriously considered - some changes to the takeover code to bar foreign companies from taking control of our defence stocks.

Where is Heseltine when we need him.

I suspect we are going to have to create an EU version of Nato, bypassing US and a lot sooner than 5 years. If anything is going to spark a recession it's needing to prepare for war... Long term I can't comprehend why US wants to poke it's allies and side with Russia and China, other than the obvious temptation to willy wave. I can't see how we can trust them with this government as they clearly don't have the same goals for global peace. I certainly wouldn't want to be giving them intel about Russia or China at the moment as it would likely be sent to them on a postcard.

Long term I can't comprehend why US wants to poke it's allies and side with Russia and China, other than the obvious temptation to willy wave.

We should not get too wrapped up in Trump as his tenure is 4 years, despite attempts by his team to give him immortality. Not all Republicans are on his side and there are still those that believe in the European relationship (and who are very aware of the sacrifices the US has made for peace). When I see what Trump is doing today, I am reminded of the fables. The tortoise and the hare. The reed and the oak. Trump is trying to go too fast and too brutally. He will tire at some point and something will snap.

@Talonz somehow I don't think Russia or Ukraine can wait 4 years...

Not in advance. I'd rather them just spend it if they need to, and then raise taxes after if they need to

I think Starmer must have read a previous post of mine where i said he should raid the Foreign Aid Budget to increase spending on defence.

PS If he needs me as an advisor I'll be happy to do so and I would advise him to sack the entire front bench for a start...