To think getting four A*s at A-level is pointless and might even be bad

[MeJuly]

If you look at the entry requirements for the top universities, the very top don't ask for four As but have interviews and tests to differentiate the top students. Below that none of them ask for four As and apart from Maths/FM none ask for four A-levels at all as far I know. AIBU to think that working so hard to get four A*s at A-level is actually a bad thing? It doesn't get you anything and is a huge amount of work at a sensitive time in your life.

(I think there might be one degree at Imperial that once asked someone for four A*s. That is really an exception though.)

FFS I really am too old for this.

It's back to the argument of why do I have to learn algebra, I'll never use it. It's not actually about ever thinking that you'll use Algebra, it's about problem solving which gives you life skills

Same with A levels - why not do the very best and try for the top marks, it's a great lesson in life - if you're going to do something, put your all into it and do what you can

I agree. It's a few years ago now but DS did 5 A levels including FM. He was advised against it but was determined. He also did extra modules. He did get 5A*s but I suspect his offers were higher because he was doing so many and he basically did nothing but work during Y13.

I got AAAB before * were possible.

If I'd not taken the 4th alevel, I'd probably have got AAB, as the B was a choice I got poorer at as the answers became more wordy. I also played 2 instruments, got my gold DoE, and worked. Bio, Chem, phys maths are overlapping enough to not make it a massive workload.

DS is planning on taking 4 - because maths, FM and physics is too narrow (or at least that's what we have convinced him - he is welcome to drop one if necessary).

It's right for some students. It's right for some subject combinations.

that thinking wont get you into oxbridge @MeJuly

Not your average grad programme, no. But if we're talking about the kind of student who can get 4 A-stars and is looking at top universities, we're also talking about the very upper end of grad programmes - Deloitte etc - where the competition comprises all the top students from the top universities with very little gap between them.

One of mine started out with 5 A levels plus AS in general studies. The plan was always to drop one of the 5 at the end of year 12 as an AS level but agonised about dropping one. Ended up with 4 As at A level and 2 As at AS, this was the year before A* came in. They also had a social life and worked between 18 and 30 hours a week in a job they liked, learned to drive and passed driving test. I'm not sure making her drop a subject would have been a positive.

Her brothers would have recoiled in horror at doing more than 3. Amazingly kids vary.

Ha! It's the opposite for me. My home life was not conducive towards study and I did poorly at A level (not a great 6th form either). I managed to get a uni place and really found my personal and study feet there.
I don't share my A level results with anyone as I don't feel they are good refection of me or my abilities. It's not like I didn't work hard, or want to work hard.
The ultimately haven't held me back at all.

I remember chatting to someone in one of the big four firms and A-levels counted for a lot. Possibly more than the degree. If you didn’t get brilliant a-levels it didn’t matter what you got in your degree.

Some kids are capable of doing well at 4 A levels, and would be bored only doing 3. Especially if they aren't essay based. I've got one friend whose kid is currently doing 4 plus about 10 orchestras, and EPQ plus other stuff - and he'll get 4A* doing barely any work. He could read fluently in nursery.

The A-stars will get the interviews (if applicable) and will get the offers.
Usually the actual offer is As only, not A star.

So there is a point. The 4th A level is not necessary, but is a help.

Dd had the option of taking 4 A levels, but after much discussion with her 6th form advisor she decided to do 3. The reasoning behind this was that for the course and the uni’s she wanted to apply to, AAA was needed, plus a good performance at interview, plus evidence of relevant work or work experience. She decided to concentrate on the extra curricular stuff, to make sure her application stood out. It was the right decision in the end as she got a conditional offer at her first choice Uni, and waiting list for a couple of other

Yeah, all that hard work to do well in subjects I enjoyed and was good at, get into a top university and come out with a First, land a graduate role at a top firm - what a waste of time all that was!

Yes, I didn't need to get 4As (pre-A*s being introduced) but for some people the thought process is along the lines of "Why climb a mountain? Because it's there".

I know this isn't everyone's take on things but I personally would have been devastated at less than all As, because I knew I was capable of those grades. It's no less valid than the disappointment of someone less academic who was aiming for all Bs but who got BCC. Or indeed someone really sporty (definitely not me!) not coming first in an event they had trained for months for.

Success comes in many forms and A*s aren't the be all and end all, but there's no need to dismiss the achievenents of those who do well academically as "pointless".

Remember that most universities at the level you are talking about are not publishing grade expectations, they are minimum application grades. Not all will interview or test separately. The reality is that the vast majority of serious applicants for those top universities for those massively oversubscribed courses will have the very top marks. That means the universitiies are most likely to accept over-performing candidates rather than those who hit the minimum.

Further maths is one of those subjects that is required at the highest level for some of the most oversubscribed courses at those universities so it is natural to expect that successful applicants will have those results.

Having said that, top marks in 3 A levels will almost always be preferable to lower grades across 4 A levels. Some unis will actually only offer on 4 if you apply whilst taking 4. Apply when taking 3 and you will be offered on 3.

Ex Head of Sixth Form here. Study 3 A-Levels and do something else relevant to the course- read around it, do some online learning or do the extended essay. Unis generally do not want 4, they want 3 with a student who has something personal about the subject to talk about. Same for the personal statement.

I don’t think it’s a bad thing, or a waste of time. Four A* A levels will prove to any employer that you have brains and discipline which will translate well into workplace skills.

A 2:2 isn't bad, ntmdino. Obviously you were expected to get at least a 2:1 but a 2:2 is pretty good and usually indicates somebody has had a good time at university. That wasn't true for you but when you are sending in a cv or completing an application form, it looks that way.

Many of the cleverest and most successful people achieved a 2:2, some even a third, remember that.

You have to get past this. It's what you do now that counts.

The universities have clear ideas of what they want in my opinion. Interview gives them a better feel of the candidate maybe? Instead of predicted grades from teachers. My friend has a 3 C offer to study medicine at UCL. This was 20+ yrs ago. He got the 4 As he was always going to get but clearly UCL wanted to him to chose them.

Oh, I'm about 25 years past this ;) It just looks like an anomalous result, given that I had mostly As at GCSE, straight As at A-level and then...damp squib.

I've had a good career thus far, I've only had one interview where I didn't get the job and I always get offered interviews, and everything worked out pretty well in the end. However, I was just making the point that...sometimes, better A-levels than required by university offers can actually be useful. I suppose it would've been useful context that my first-choice offer from uni was actually BBB.

My DS is 25 now (so the following might be a bit out of date!) but his Grammar 6th Form told students to pick 4 A Levels but they were only really expected to sit for 3 by the end of year 13.

This was so that if (when?) a pupil realised they had made a grave mistake and couldn’t possibly continue on with the now-despised subject, they would still have 3 A levels worth of UCAS points and be able to move up to uni with their classmates (and not have to spend another year cramming in a third A Level at a FE college).

This worked particularly well back when you could quit a subject at the end of Year 12 and still end up with an AS level. Under that system the 4th subject didn’t feel like a waste of time because you still had something to show for it.

By the time DS was in 6th Form most subjects had done away with the AS Level and the others were phasing it out.
Not sure exactly why the Government ditched it but my son’s teacher said exams at the end of each of the two years had led to more time revising the subject matter than actually learning the subject matter, which is clearly untenable. Returning to just A Levels allowed for a better learning trajectory, yet it seems to me that 4 subjects is almost a relic of the AS level times? As in, it was normal to study 4 subjects at the beginning of Year 12 but it was with the aim of finishing Year 13 with 3 A levels and 1 AS Level.

That said, it’s clear some teens are more than capable of taking 4 subjects at A Level and I wouldn’t want that opportunity to be removed from them just because it’s not necessary for University applications.

I suppose the challenge is how to cater for a wide range of learning styles and personality types?
Because the safety valve of a droppable 4th subject is crucial for some teens but at the same time, 4 can be an awful lot of pressure on the diligent, perfectionist teens who wouldn’t consider any subject droppable under any circumstances - it’s great to aim high academically but not if it’s at the expense of mental wellbeing or leaves no time for creative extracurriculars or hanging out with peers.

The point of A-levels isn't just to get you to university though it's to teach you knowledge for future use whether at university or in your future career. Doing well at A-level generally makes it easier at university - otherwise you have to catch up once you're there. Even if you're not studying the exact subjects at university you studied at a-level things like essay writing and critical thinking really are transferable. And breadth of knowledge is useful in all kinds of unforeseeable ways.

With 4 A*s you also have more options for the future, e.g. if you want to change direction at university or later in your career.

That's interesting. I've got a late diagnosis of ASD and I was the opposite. I didn't 'get' A-levels at all. I didn't understand the level I was supposed to hit and ended up with CCD and scraping my way into my uni of choice.

I really loved uni work and understood what was required and got a 1st.

My DH was similar to you. I think so many different factors are at play during that stage of life.

STEM subjects are viewed differently. My DD looked at Cambridge for engineering as she was forecast 3 x A at A Level. She was advised by a faculty member that although they state 3x A on the prospectus in reality most that are accepted have 4 A Levels.
She decided not to bother but went to another very good Uni where the entry grades were A*, A, A.

I know what you are trying to say OP but the fact is the very best students have 4 A stars and have a stellar record of achievement in other areas too.
Rowed for England, Ran for their county, lead flautist in the National youth orchestra, set up a successful design company at the age of 16.
That sort of thing.

I'm in Scotland but for doing a degree course in healthcare or education there is usually an interview to find out if you have any skills or work place assessments etc that show that you really want the qualification. It's not just the top grades are of use if you puke at vomit or can't stand children if you see what I mean. So better to research what occupations students have gone on to after uni as well as their grades and try to match.

Obviously getting top A level grades gives you more options when deciding the next stage of your education (or starting your career).

However Only Magic Circle law firms, big 4 accountancy firms and a handful of financial institutions are that bothered about A levels when they recruit graduates. Way more companies run their own tests, assessments and carry out interviews which are designed to see whether they think people will fit into their culture etc.

When DD2 applied for her Masters (at a very top institution), they didn't ask.about A level grades at all.