How Can The World Stand By While Trump Sucks Up To Putin?

[Nolieinforme]

OK, so this probably isn't an AIBU, but I'm speechless that Trump is behaving like a bully and seems to be getting away with it.

He just lies. "Zelensky is a dictator" "Ukraine started the war" "Putin has done nothing wrong" etc, etc. I can hardly believe what's been said on the news today.

Why are the rest of the world letting this happen? If America want's to align themselves with Russia, then we should be returning the Chagos Islands without the huge sum of money promised, closing all the US airbases in the UK, closing the US embassy, and expelling their diplomats, etc, etc.

Trump is a madman and what is going to happen if no-one stands up to him? If this was anyone else they just wouldn't get away with it.

We've loads of money, £725 billion in ISA's, almost all of which is either in cash but paying zero tax, OR invested overseas and again pay no tax & it goes overseas mainly because we charge stamp duty on transactions....

No gain to the UK exchequer whatsoever.

Investment managers even have a name for this tax efficient measure "ISA Wrap"

I really don't understand why we give away money to people who really don't need it.

Oh and let's all ignore the elephant in the room in the UK, that our housing stock is all we have left, which is why we are so unhealthily obsessed with it and terrified of it dropping a couple of thousand in value.
Address this, and how unaffordable housing has become for so many, before poking your stick at a cripple.

I’m thinking of my Dad, who worked full time + overtime for 50 years. I hate to think of him being described as a “taker.” National insurance is like any other kind of insurance - it pays out when you’re too old or sick to work.

I strongly doubt, also, that the sick and disabled are greedily eating up our defence spending. What a dire and inhunmane conclusion to come to, unless you have had it piped into your ears via the press to such an extent that an original thought left out the back door years ago..

I don’t ‘do’ the Murdoch press, I primarily read the I, Guardian, BBC etc

I don’t hold the opinion I do because I’m ideological about benefits and disagree with them as a principle. It’s because at present they have climbed to a completely unsustainable level, so much so that disability benefits alone (not UC, not pensions, not pension credit) outstrip what we spend on the military. If we were spending that much on anything else - transport, housing, the police, education - I would be saying the same thing. We can no longer afford to be an economy that exists to support only the unemployed, disabled or elderly (and I say this as a disabled woman - with something like epilepsy although I don’t want to be too specific). We have other dire needs that require urgent funding and we can’t simply continue to raise the tax burden as it is very high as it is.

I feel like valid criticism of welfare or health/social care spending has become the new criticism of immigration, in that posters instantly rush to call you a bigot to shut down very legitimate and fact-based concerns.

Fact is America has ghosted us, we have some pretty scary enemies and no proper allies any more, so we funnel money into benefits and neglect the military at our own peril.

Trump is not necessarily wrong about Ukraine, though the way he has done it has been in his own crass style.

Ukraine needs to be settled according to the realities of the situation, minimising the risk of nuclear conflagration. This is no more Chamberlain than us deciding sensibly not to send troops into Hungary and Czechoslovakia when their uprisings were put down by Russia in Cold War. Nukes have forever changed the calculus and I am amazed how many don’t realise this. It is the same reason we haven’t tried regime change in N Korea.

Trump has also showed up how weak Europe are as a world power in any sense. We depend on the U.S for military support and most of the technology we use daily, Boycotting the U.S would be like kicking ourselves in the face. Anyone here fancy never using Apple, Microsoft, Facebook and Twitter ever again (and the list is longer really)?

The only alternative is China, and we don’t want to go there.

So, whilst Trump is truly scary, in the short term we can’t confront him. The best we can do is work a lot harder to build up our own military and technological capabilities, but that would mean real sacrifice and hard work. It remains to be seen whether sclerotic Europe (including us) are up for the challenge.

The majority of people claiming UC do not work.

38% of UC claimants are in work. That’s an awful lot of employers who are being subsidised.

Now, now, don't go repeating the crazy dictator's (Trump in this instance) false statements. Zelensky is not a dictator and hasn't cancelled elections. He was elected for a 5 year term, which was due to end in May 2024. However, Ukraine has been in a state or martial law since Russia's invasion and elections cannot take place under martial law. Zelensky has vowed to hold elections once the war ends. (Which is more than Trump has done. He not only broke the law in an attempt to stay in power the first time, he's threatened to remain in power this time, even though the Constitution prohibits this.)

Doubtless!

Sadly, that is so very true.

100% this. Unfortunately the world right now is not the place for lofty ideals and falling on your sword for the sake of principle. The only people in the UK Trump admires are the Royals, I feel now is their moment to step up and do some urgent schmoozing so we get a good tariff deal and soften Trump toward our point of view a little. The British public have been woefully self defeating with their pro-Gaza, anti-West, anti-American sentiments because they thought it was a luxury protected from the cold light of day by our military. I fear we are in for a shock as to what would happen to us without American allegiance and a proper military.

@FireandRain23 There is an awful lot of rhetoric around "net takers" which is one of the posts I replied too. There is nothing wrong with pensioners or anyone being a net takers. I was just making the point that the amount of net takers will increase when you have an ageing population. Thats it..

Oh and let's all ignore the elephant in the room in the UK, that our housing stock is all we have left, which is why we are so unhealthily obsessed with it and terrified of it dropping a couple of thousand in value.

Yep

That post made literally no sense at all. Can anyone elaborate?

National insurance is like any other kind of insurance - it pays out when you’re too old or sick to work.

Is anyone debating that? All I have said is that demographics matter.

Yep this is close to my view

Giving taxes back to who ?

This sounds reasonable, but it isn't. Ukraine wouldn't need millions for military and rebuilding support if Russia hadn't invaded. And I don't just mean their full invasion in 2022, but the start of their invasion in 2014. Why isn't the narrative that RUSSIA is costing the world millions (not to mention lives lost). It is not Ukraine's fault they were invaded and they now stand (almost alone) defending the rest of Europe. Russia could end the war today and pay reparations to Ukraine. We all know they won't, but why isn't there more uproar about what RUSSIA is costing, not statements about how much is being spent on Ukraine, or what Ukraine is costing other nations. Ukraine isn't costing other nations anything. They are saving our freedom at the cost of their lives and their country.

Why does the Western World seem so certain that appeasement will work this time, given their experience last time? It's infuriating.

Trump doesn't want to broker a deal. He will do what Putin tells him to do.

@Wildflowers99 We devalued salaries, reduced investment and boosted assets after the crash primarily houses which has become the only real growth in our economy. Many people didn't notice their salary was falling behind inflation because their house value increased even though ever increasing house prices don't help the majority. We now have low wages, high taxes, high housing costs and public services needing more money. Is that what you meant @pentangles?

I’m just reacting to the usual moaners about the benefits bill, not you personally.

It’s not the elderly driving it. We now spend more on non-pension benefits than pensions. Look up the increase in benefits claims, it’s terrifying

Even if this were true, (and it's not) the vast majority of those who are of working age, who claim benefits, are in work. They are in low wage jobs, or in "zero hours" contracts, meanwhile the companies who employ them are making £billions of profit. The government is subsidising these companies by letting them get away with not paying people enough.

We can no longer afford to be an economy that exists to support only the unemployed, disabled or elderly

So now you agree pension spending isn't insignificant 😆

We have other dire needs that require urgent funding and we can’t simply continue to raise the tax burden as it is very high as it is.

The tax burden is high for higher earners vs other European countries. We tax the lower & middle earners less but the problem with raising taxes for them is the distorted housing market & crappy wages.

What would you suggest we do @Wildflowers99 to reduce the benefit spend?

@FireandRain23 I haven't moaned about the benefits bill.

I don't endorse Trump's tactics here at all but the UK is hardly in a position to throw stones.
Our current ruling party when last in power created a dossier of lies to take us into an illegal war that killed 500,000. Just a few months back that same party voted to kill 4,000 old people by removing WFP (their own figures).
Meanwhile you complain about Trump "behaving like a bully"... surely we should start much closer to home with our own Labour party who get away scot free with killing thousands?

He is completely wrong, he said Ukraine attacked Russia!! He also carried on with total garbage about Ukraine, US aid, gave away all of the 'Wests negotiating levers..... its as if Trump is a deep sleeper Kremlin mole....

The US gains a great deal from Europe, not least in trade, military bases, intelligence sharing, culture... its not a one way street.

If we cannot rely on the Yanks, then quite honestly, what is the point in allowing them access to our territory? why?

Yes agree with your last paragraph, we in Europe have relied on NATO's art 5, thinking it was written in stone, Trump has shown its written on loo roll.