State school 6th forms oversubscribed

[LordGiveMeStrength]

AIBU to be concerned about the impact the new VAT on private schools will have on state school 6th forms?

Our local 6th form open days have been jam packed with so many year 11s moving from private schools.

Issues I see:

1. kids who have been at the local state secondary school since year 7 have been told their space in the 6th form is not guaranteed and if they don’t get as high GCSE results as other potential pupils they will not have a spot. The nearest private schools have amazing GCSE results so very likely to displace existing students to other state school options a far distance from their homes.
2. infrastructure - the local school is already heaving so accommodating a huge influx is not possible, buildings are already crumbling and it will take a long time before investment actually happens to improve the facilities.
3. false economy- currently kids in private schools don’t cost the government to be educated. Government’s plans are that money raised from VAT will pay for additional teachers (but I don’t see that happening immediately). If lots of private schools kids move to the state system not only will government not collect that VAT, but they will all be liable for educating pupils who previously were in the private sector. I believe the current cost from central government to educate in 6th form is £5k with additional payments for more academic subjects (eg further maths A level pupils will equal an additional £900 per pupil per year in the state schools). Apologies if these sums aren’t correct.

https://inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/private-school-parents-vat-state-sixth-forms-3473062?srsltid=AfmBOopXOi5842QMq-qO1NqHGR9g9-4BOi6Gc0v_dlhBbFBTMmU5Prsi

Who funds the canteen? This really is obtuse. You really can’t be a teacher!

Perhaps you shouldn't have suggested that schools need to pay for extra food and textbooks.

On the other and I know kids who changed to a private school for sixth form. They wanted to board and got scholarships that made it affordable.

We are talking about the cost of extra A level students, not whether they cost money at all. Increasing numbers isn't going to add much extra to the heating, lighting, cleaning bills etc unless there are more buildings. They aren't going to increase the number of books in the library either and they aren't providing textbooks to six formers nowadays in many schools. Students pay for those resources. There will be an increase in costs but I don't agree it will be substantial.

Okay, you really are not understanding basic things at all.

How do you think the school pays for, staffs, cleans and maintains the canteen? Do you genuinely think students paying for their individual lunches funds this?

You don't seem to be accepting that extra pupils will pay for their own textbooks and food so it was incorrect to list these as additional costs to the school.

Okay, if you don’t know anything about schools funding and accounting, I’m afraid I can’t help you further. Just carry on making things up in your head instead 😆

I think catering is contracted out at many schools.

You also still haven't clarified from yesterday why this will necessitate a huge increase in income tax.

Noble is a very, very long standing member of mumsnet Any regular on the education threads will know she is a very experienced maths teacher with a lot of experience in university applications.

And as for canteens. All of the schools I know have canteens contracted out by places like Sodexo or the larger 6th forms have branches of Costa Coffee/Starbucks on site.

They are taught in those class sizes at my school.

I am glad of the “think of the teachers” though - makes a change from the usual posts!

I'm not actually asking you for help.

If a sixth form is attached to a school it’s already there and not all FE colleges have canteens. My dc’s didn’t. And yes parents pay for everything from locker keys to books.

Also do you have to be so rude. Noble is a highly experienced and well respected maths teacher who has given advice to MNers over many years.

X posted!😂

This is just one example of how the per capita funding doesn’t just pay for teaching only. Substitute lighting, heating, sports pitches (do sixth formers not play in any sports teams or do any drama or clubs in your school? ) Anyone who works in a school knows quite well that the money that “extra bums on seats” bring isn’t just allocated to teaching. Do you think schools don’t have upkeep and general costs? A maths teacher ought to know this very well.

The per capita funding for students at FE colleges is much higher - c.£7k compared to c.£4.3k. Why do you think this is?

It’s already there, so the per capita funding is decreased as it’s cross-subsidised by the 11-16 funding. 🙄 It doesn’t mean that sixth form funding pays for none of it. Do you really think that schools 16-19 funding just assumes that the 11-16 funding pays for all the buildings, upkeep, energy costs, admin and pastoral staffing for the sixth formers too?

@Comefromaway I’m very sceptical that a maths teacher has no idea how school budgets and funding work. Or that someone who writes school references has no idea what they usually contain, or what data is included on that page.

Someone writing references for maths A-level students in particular will know very well that for high flyers schools include details of how that student compares to others in their A-level cohort (for maths it’s especially useful to know whether a student is in the top two of an A-level cohort of 20 or a cohort of 60, for example).

A maths teacher will usually have a clue that his or her department budget is not just paying only for pure teaching costs.

A maths teacher knows who pays for textbooks, which you still haven't acknowledged.

I'm also not the only teacher who has said that they don't include individual class sizes in school references.

It's funny that you point out that sixth form funding per pupil is lower because of the facilities that already exist in the school because of the existence of the lower school, yet you also insist that no money will be left over to pay for additional teaching staff from a huge influx of pupils who will double class sizes (and you still haven't explained why this will happen), because of the extra facilities they will need, despite those facilities already existing. Do you think that no sixth form funding goes towards teaching staff?

🤣You don’t frequent the education boards do you. This, along with the rudeness to the extent of deletion makes me very sceptical that you are in the position you say you are.

I am in London and have looked quite wide for DC. Sixth forms are generally looking for children, not the other way round

@neverthelastone You seem to think you're very much more knowledgeable than everyone else on what schools do and don't provide for sixth formers, class sizes etc, and also university admissions process. Are you a teacher who writes references or a university admissions tutor who reads them, or even a parent of a sixth former?

My husband is an ex teacher who used to write references and is now involved in interviews for university admission. Noble's posts appear to be much more accurate than yours (and have been consistently so over the last 10 years.)

@noblegiraffe I didn’t remotely say that - you need to read back through the thread and see what I and others have written. You don’t seem to be good at reading comprehension as you didn’t understand my point (to another poster) about how an increase in the overall teaching budget needs to be paid for by an overall increase in taxation, not the VAT policy.

I find it very hard to believe that you don’t understand basic school funding. What size are your A-level classes? Would you happily add many more students with no extra time for marking, preparation or practicals? Would your colleagues in English or Chemistry be equally happy to do this?

Let’s take chemistry - an easier example. Who funds the school labs, the lab techs, the costs of resources for the practicals? The equipment? Do the sixth formers buy the chemicals for their practical lessons? Nip down to the shop for a couple of extra Bunsen burners, a bit of manganese and a new fume cupboard when the lower school one breaks, do they?

An easier example than the canteen. Are sixth formers’ parents invoiced for the cost of the lighting in the sixth form common room and the hand towels in the sixth form toilets? Or the proportion of the school cleaners’ time devoted to cleaning the classrooms after the sixth formers have been in? Or the time the admin or pastoral staff spend sending emails to the sixth formers?

I did reply to you on this up thread!