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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs

795 replies

Needmoresleep · 16/02/2025 15:22

Unbelievable but true.

Doctors, nurses and other health care professionals now have to compete for jobs and training with applicants from across the world. No priority is given to those already in the country.

Even ordinary entry level jobs can attract hundreds of applicants within a few hours. Newly qualified doctors and nurses need that first job to get the experience that overseas applicants will be able to offer.

In 2021 immigration law was changed and something called the Resident Market Labour Test was dropped for health and care workers. It means that the UK may be the only country not to prioritise those already in the country.

The previous thread:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5267503-aibu-to-be-furious-that-there-are-no-jobs-for-young-doctors?page=1
included a number of stories. An entire graduating class of nurses unable to find that first job whilst administrators from the local hospital were taking recruitment trips to Asia. An experienced GP wanting to return from a career break only to discovering that she, and others in a similar position, could not find work, a consultant surprised at how well qualified locums seeking zero hours, short notice, cover work are. The number of overseas doctors applying for the limited number of specialist training positions in the UK doubled between 2023 and 2025.

A group of us, who have been on the higher education board since our DC were first applying to medical school, recently discovered that none of our DC, coming to the end of their foundation years (F1& F2) expect to get anything other than the odd shift with NHS bank. Most see moving to Australia as the only way to stay in medicine. They say the same applies to their peers.

Our young doctors have spent seven or eight years getting to where they are, and have £100,000 of student loans to repay. The taxpayer has spent £250,000 on each of them.

Unfortunately the NHS does not appear to keep data on the number of applicants per vacancy, nor on vacancies that, because of the numbers applying, close within a few hours. It also does not appear to question why such a small proportion of F2s are progressing within the NHS. Instead there seems to be an assumption that this wastage is somehow natural, and that the solution is to re-double international recruitment efforts, to increase medical school places, and to replace traditional junior doctor roles with less skilled Physician Associates. Measures that will only increase the problem.

If things are not changed, even more of our skilled and dedicated young people will find themselves without jobs. We would welcome experiences, information and ideas.

Please also spread the word, write to your MP, tell people in a position to influence who may not be aware. We have a shortage of doctors, nurses, midwives, and paramedics. Our first priority is to ensure that those already in the country are able to get jobs.

If young Doctors were asked, and the same will apply to other Health Care Professionals, they would argue that:

  • Busy F2s work long shifts including nights which makes extensive job search difficult
  • Posts often attract hundreds of applicants, and close within a few hours. This level of competition is in itself off-putting
  • Overseas applicants are often supported by agencies who can set alerts for vacancies and ensure that multiple applications are submitted. No such support is offered to UK applicants,
  • These agencies will help with the writing of applications so they score well against NHS selection criteria. Again no such careers support is offered to UK applicants.
  • The Government/NHS offer incentives for overseas doctors including bringing in dependents and scope for future citizenship, as well as some exemptions from some exams and relocation packages. These may motivate overseas doctors to apply for entry level jobs even if they are overqualified. Entry level jobs which our newly qualified young people need.
  • Various extensive and expensive courses are advertised on the internet designed to give participants an advantage when applying for specialist training in the UK. In contrast many UK medical schools do very little to ensure that their graduates have the additional academic super-curricular that, with current levels of competition, are effectively requirements to gain a training place. This year it is predicted that only 50% of the around 4,500 places will go to graduates from UK medical schools, even though it is recognised that for many UK training is simply a passport to well paid jobs in private hospitals in Singapore, Dubai or their home countries. This is poor workforce planning. If we are going to avoid a future shortage of consultants we need to prioritise those likely to build a future in the UK.
Many young doctors will see a couple of years in Australia as a reasonable fall-back. They accept that they will be taking jobs Australians don’t want and will be at the back of the queue when it comes to specialist training, but they will also be gaining experience in a different healthcare environment.

Others, including those with family or caring responsibilities, or those who brought their families over when offered fixed term contracts, simply face unemployment. We should not be recruiting overseas when we have good, qualified, NHS experienced, doctors, nurses and other HCPs in the UK driving Ubers or working in Tesco.

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mumsneedwine · 17/02/2025 21:09

They can even see it in India

www.medindia.net/news/several-junior-doctors-could-be-rendered-jobless-11347-1.htm

Clavinova · 17/02/2025 21:09

mumsneedwine
Some substantiated details of GPs driving Ubers

That's the same second-hand account about one unidentified GP. Not several GPs. Substantiated? I thought you taught science for a living.

mumsneedwine · 17/02/2025 21:13

And the abusive personal behaviour begins.

I happen to have met that GP. They now have a job and are v happy. In Australia. Did you miss all the other articles ? Or do they not fit your story.

mumsneedwine · 17/02/2025 21:15

@Clavinova to help you understand

www.pulsetoday.co.uk/views/dr-burnt-out/not-enough-gps-thousands-of-us-are-now-unemployed/

Clavinova · 17/02/2025 21:17

Needmoresleep
There were some headlines about Doctors driving ubers a few months back. They were interviewed

He wasn't interviewed - it was a second-hand account;

'A colleague told GP Online ...'

mumsneedwine · 17/02/2025 21:18

There are so many. If it helps one person understand how bad things are I'll keep posting. Can't see a GP ? It's because the NHS won't employ them. Much the same with younger doctors, nurses etc

www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/24384156.unemployed-doctors-teesside-unable-pay-bills/

mumsneedwine · 17/02/2025 21:19

@Clavinova can you not read the other posts that support the evidence ? Or can you only read things you agree with (see, I can be rude too).

Clavinova · 17/02/2025 21:19

mumsneedwine · 17/02/2025 21:15

I'm only doubting the Uber anecdotes.

Needmoresleep · 17/02/2025 21:22

Clavinova · 17/02/2025 21:19

I'm only doubting the Uber anecdotes.

Do you doubt that there are unemployed doctors?

If so what jobs should they take which, say, allows them to be available for bank shifts that might come up.

Deliveroo?

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mumsneedwine · 17/02/2025 21:23

@Clavinova so you agree doctors are unemployed and there is a huge issue. Good, because it seemed that you thought it was all made up.

If it helps, I've met the Uber driving GP. They helped a lot with WP stuff, but now left the UK. A huge loss to the NHS.

OneMorePiece · 17/02/2025 21:25

Clavinova · 17/02/2025 21:03

That's funny - Brexit was mentioned early on in the thread and on the previous thread.

Yes, the RLMT was abolished post Brexit resulting in an explosion of IMGs. See below for the analysis of the effect this and other factors are having:

academic.oup.com/pmj/article/100/1184/361/7513585?login=false

Clavinova · 17/02/2025 21:25

mumsneedwine
And the abusive personal behaviour begins

Abusive?

(see, I can be rude too)

In fact, I thought you and Needmoresleep were a little rude to me last night.

mathanxiety · 17/02/2025 21:31

Clavinova · 17/02/2025 21:03

That's funny - Brexit was mentioned early on in the thread and on the previous thread.

Do you have the answer to the question about numbers?

Or are you just banging the sunlit uplands drum?

Clavinova · 17/02/2025 21:38

OneMorePiece · 17/02/2025 21:25

Yes, the RLMT was abolished post Brexit resulting in an explosion of IMGs. See below for the analysis of the effect this and other factors are having:

academic.oup.com/pmj/article/100/1184/361/7513585?login=false

Well, in fact it would appear that changes were made before 2021 - in 2018/2019 after lobbying from the medical profession and politicians:

June 2018 - Immigration cap on doctors and nurses to be lifted to relieve NHS
Home secretary to relax rules from Friday, due to health service recruitment pressures.
The relaxation of immigration rules follows a vociferous campaign by NHS organisations and medical groups.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jun/14/sajid-javid-confirms-cap-on-foreign-doctors-and-nurses-will-be-lifted

From 6 October 2019, all medical practitioners have been added to the Shortage Occupation List in the UK. This means that all medical practitioners are exempt from the Resident Labour Market Test (RLMT) and can apply for any specialty in any recruitment round, subject to eligibility.
https://www.phstrecruitment.org.uk/recruitment-process/am-i-eligible/uk-eligibility

Clavinova · 17/02/2025 21:41

mumsneedwine
so you agree doctors are unemployed and there is a huge issue. Good, because it seemed that you thought it was all made up

I doubted that we were 'the only country in the world' with a similar problem if that's what you mean.

mumsneedwine · 17/02/2025 21:45

@Clavinova we are the only country in the world who do not prioritise our own staff.

mumsneedwine · 17/02/2025 21:46

We are the only country in the world who have unemployed doctors when we also have millions in waiting lists. Unless you have evidence to the contrary ?

mumsneedwine · 17/02/2025 21:48

This is the problem. We train our staff but then leave them unemployed. Stupid waste of money and talent (because other countries happily recruit them all)

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
Clavinova · 17/02/2025 21:53

mumsneedwine · 17/02/2025 21:45

@Clavinova we are the only country in the world who do not prioritise our own staff.

Well, I've just been reading this article in the Irish Examiner;

June 2024

Almost half of graduates from Irish medical schools fail to get place on GP training course.
This year, 349 graduates from Irish medical schools applied for 350 GP training places but 161 of them were not accepted, internal data from the Irish College of GPs shows.
There were 1,311 applicants including graduates of medical colleges in Ireland, Britain, across the EU, and outside the EU.
Breaking it down by citizenship, the 1,311 applicants included 408 Irish citizens, 68 citizens of the UK and EU countries, and 835 from non-EU countries.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41419162.html

Clavinova · 17/02/2025 22:07

Needmoresleep
Another hurdle is likely to be Irish public sector language requirements

I couldn't see that mentioned in my link from last night - only an English language requirement.

Marchesman · 17/02/2025 22:12

OneMorePiece · 17/02/2025 20:06

Perhaps you could shed some light on this too? It's a recruitment drive that the NHS appears to be involved in? Not sure if and how exactly the NHS is involved, but came across this online.

What do you think of applicants coming through this recruitment drive or similar?

https://goocampusuk.com/mrcp-mba

It would be great to have your opinion or anyone else's on how this scheme works within the NHS process? How much are NHS trusts paying for these applicants?

The current NHS recruitment system, as I understand it, was designed to make it fair and equitable to all applicants, regardless of their background.

Schemes like this are unfair if they are potentially fasttracking applicants from overseas who are prepared to pay extortionate prices. It's mostly wealthy overseas applicants that can pay up to £32000. It's also questionable whether they have got in on merit or because they had the means to pay.

To a member of the general public, it looks like some new International Medical Graduates (IMGs) who are yet to enter the country are potentially getting an advantage over IMGs and UK medical grads already in the country.

At a time when there is a limited number of posts for everyone that is applying, UK grads and UK IMGs should be prioritised ahead of those IMGs still abroad.

It looks questionable to me; I don't see it producing competition for home grown graduates.

Auchencar · 17/02/2025 22:16

The idea that all F2s should have a straight run through to consultancy and should expect employment for life underpins these two threads. It is actually astonishing. No doubt the wastage is too high at the moment but some bright spark thought increasing medical school numbers was a smart idea. The fact does remain that no other profession has all its entrants making it to the top, as a number of posters have said. Merit has to count for something - this isn't all hopelessly random. I made a perfectly pragmatic suggestion based on experience and was quite rudely slapped down. I'm not clear what the protagonists of these threads are after.

mumsneedwine · 17/02/2025 22:25

@Auchencar to be clear. No one expects a clear run to the top. What they did expect was to have a job. Be that speciality training or locum or clinical fellow. Just a job. As a doctor after 7-8 years and £000,000 of debt.

I am surprised anyone thinks we should train doctors to not employ them.

Needmoresleep · 17/02/2025 22:37

I am not sure that this proves what you think it does.

My understanding is incomplete but this is what I understand.

Ireland has always taken in a lot of medical students from overseas, including places like the US and Canada. Indeed at least one school only admits overseas students. They also have linked schemes with medical schools overseas. So my friend's DC did their pre-clininical at a private medical school in Malaysia and their clinical in Ireland. He then intended to do his foundation years and training in the UK as Ireland were clear from the outset that they would not offer post graduation jobs to overseas students like him.

Covid struck so he was graduated early, and Ireland was able to provide foundation training.

Ireland will have to give equal treatment to EU citizens. The UK has historical access to the Irish Labour Market. Those from elsewhere, including my friends son will get jobs if Ireland needs them, but they won't get equal treatment.

Traditionally a lot of Irish doctors and other HCPs came to the UK. There is anecdotal evidence that some of these are returning, and indeed that senior British doctors including consultants are taking jobs in the Republic. (Pay and conditions are seen as better.)

It will be interesting. Ireland has started financing medical school places for Irish passport holders in Belfast on condition graduates work in Ireland afterwards. I am not sure what they do about public sector language Irish language requirements but I assume they will continue to look to the UK to recruit in areas where they have shortages. Hopefully this will include F3 type posts. We recruit world wide so have an oversupply. So Ireland might be a viable option for our young doctors.

OP posts:
Needmoresleep · 17/02/2025 22:41

Clavinova · 17/02/2025 22:07

Needmoresleep
Another hurdle is likely to be Irish public sector language requirements

I couldn't see that mentioned in my link from last night - only an English language requirement.

OK. You are probably right. Entry to much of the Irish public sector has an Irish language requirement but this will be waived in some circumstances.

But again this is detail.

I thought your DCs medical school education was in Eastern Europe. Why this sudden interest in Ireland. Is there concern that they too need to start working up Plan Bs.

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