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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs

795 replies

Needmoresleep · 16/02/2025 15:22

Unbelievable but true.

Doctors, nurses and other health care professionals now have to compete for jobs and training with applicants from across the world. No priority is given to those already in the country.

Even ordinary entry level jobs can attract hundreds of applicants within a few hours. Newly qualified doctors and nurses need that first job to get the experience that overseas applicants will be able to offer.

In 2021 immigration law was changed and something called the Resident Market Labour Test was dropped for health and care workers. It means that the UK may be the only country not to prioritise those already in the country.

The previous thread:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5267503-aibu-to-be-furious-that-there-are-no-jobs-for-young-doctors?page=1
included a number of stories. An entire graduating class of nurses unable to find that first job whilst administrators from the local hospital were taking recruitment trips to Asia. An experienced GP wanting to return from a career break only to discovering that she, and others in a similar position, could not find work, a consultant surprised at how well qualified locums seeking zero hours, short notice, cover work are. The number of overseas doctors applying for the limited number of specialist training positions in the UK doubled between 2023 and 2025.

A group of us, who have been on the higher education board since our DC were first applying to medical school, recently discovered that none of our DC, coming to the end of their foundation years (F1& F2) expect to get anything other than the odd shift with NHS bank. Most see moving to Australia as the only way to stay in medicine. They say the same applies to their peers.

Our young doctors have spent seven or eight years getting to where they are, and have £100,000 of student loans to repay. The taxpayer has spent £250,000 on each of them.

Unfortunately the NHS does not appear to keep data on the number of applicants per vacancy, nor on vacancies that, because of the numbers applying, close within a few hours. It also does not appear to question why such a small proportion of F2s are progressing within the NHS. Instead there seems to be an assumption that this wastage is somehow natural, and that the solution is to re-double international recruitment efforts, to increase medical school places, and to replace traditional junior doctor roles with less skilled Physician Associates. Measures that will only increase the problem.

If things are not changed, even more of our skilled and dedicated young people will find themselves without jobs. We would welcome experiences, information and ideas.

Please also spread the word, write to your MP, tell people in a position to influence who may not be aware. We have a shortage of doctors, nurses, midwives, and paramedics. Our first priority is to ensure that those already in the country are able to get jobs.

If young Doctors were asked, and the same will apply to other Health Care Professionals, they would argue that:

  • Busy F2s work long shifts including nights which makes extensive job search difficult
  • Posts often attract hundreds of applicants, and close within a few hours. This level of competition is in itself off-putting
  • Overseas applicants are often supported by agencies who can set alerts for vacancies and ensure that multiple applications are submitted. No such support is offered to UK applicants,
  • These agencies will help with the writing of applications so they score well against NHS selection criteria. Again no such careers support is offered to UK applicants.
  • The Government/NHS offer incentives for overseas doctors including bringing in dependents and scope for future citizenship, as well as some exemptions from some exams and relocation packages. These may motivate overseas doctors to apply for entry level jobs even if they are overqualified. Entry level jobs which our newly qualified young people need.
  • Various extensive and expensive courses are advertised on the internet designed to give participants an advantage when applying for specialist training in the UK. In contrast many UK medical schools do very little to ensure that their graduates have the additional academic super-curricular that, with current levels of competition, are effectively requirements to gain a training place. This year it is predicted that only 50% of the around 4,500 places will go to graduates from UK medical schools, even though it is recognised that for many UK training is simply a passport to well paid jobs in private hospitals in Singapore, Dubai or their home countries. This is poor workforce planning. If we are going to avoid a future shortage of consultants we need to prioritise those likely to build a future in the UK.
Many young doctors will see a couple of years in Australia as a reasonable fall-back. They accept that they will be taking jobs Australians don’t want and will be at the back of the queue when it comes to specialist training, but they will also be gaining experience in a different healthcare environment.

Others, including those with family or caring responsibilities, or those who brought their families over when offered fixed term contracts, simply face unemployment. We should not be recruiting overseas when we have good, qualified, NHS experienced, doctors, nurses and other HCPs in the UK driving Ubers or working in Tesco.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Needmoresleep · 11/03/2025 09:11

JHound · 11/03/2025 08:42

That’s the same in all industries - definitely the same in mine. If somebody is in the country legally and has the right to work then they should be treated in terms of seeking employment. When I have also been an immigrant in other people’s country I was not treated as a second class work seeker but as an equal.

You can argue if overseas workers should have work permits in the UK in the first place which is a fair argument. But once they do there should be equality in employment.

This is not the issue.

With the lifting of the Resident Market Labour Test (RMLT) doctors already resident in the country do not get any priority over doctors elsewhere in the world.

Not just that but Doctors elsewhere can get exemptions for exams that UK doctors might have to take. Support from overseas recruitment agencies who can charge applicants a hefty fee, and with incentives in terms of an enhanced ability to settle families here.

Can you imagine the fuss if, say, train driver jobs were open to worldwide competition with overseas train drivers with experience and seniority were able to compete for entry level jobs. Using anonymised applications where credit was given to such experience and seniority.

OP posts:
Auchencar · 11/03/2025 09:11

WaryCrow · 11/03/2025 09:05

It’s fucking awful. There has to be some return of a social contracts, now we can surely all see what path the US and its economic model is leading us down. Surely? It’s been beyond disgusting, forcing people to pay for degrees and making them work on those degrees, paying to work - and then there’s nothing for them at the end.

Oyr elites betrayed us all over the last 20 years, of both coloured and all coloured ties. They thought it was funny to turn us back into a nation of aristos and serfs, with baby boomer backing, and calling on intercontinental wealth to force neoimperialist slavery down our throats. There has to be an end to it, somehow.

😂

Auchencar · 11/03/2025 09:13

Needmoresleep · 11/03/2025 09:11

This is not the issue.

With the lifting of the Resident Market Labour Test (RMLT) doctors already resident in the country do not get any priority over doctors elsewhere in the world.

Not just that but Doctors elsewhere can get exemptions for exams that UK doctors might have to take. Support from overseas recruitment agencies who can charge applicants a hefty fee, and with incentives in terms of an enhanced ability to settle families here.

Can you imagine the fuss if, say, train driver jobs were open to worldwide competition with overseas train drivers with experience and seniority were able to compete for entry level jobs. Using anonymised applications where credit was given to such experience and seniority.

Sounds as though they'd be the better train drivers.

What's the issue with that?

My own take is that all credit should go to anyone from any country who's prepared to take a job of less seniority in order to try to better the life of themselves or their family.

We're back to entitlement in one easy hop.

Needmoresleep · 11/03/2025 09:31

Auchencar · 11/03/2025 09:09

I thought a decent read might be useful.

The mood music of the reports is significantly less dramatic than MN has been, significantly less anti foreign doctor and significantly more constructive.

The sections on LEDs might be of interest too.

At the very least, the GMC reports provide a great deal more actual information than the anecdotes of four or five DC of MNers who are cross that their DC may not move effortlessly into a training post direct from foundation training. The information is also presented in a much more digestible way for those who want to be informed rather than have to read the anti IMG propaganda and anecdotes of how certain posters couldn't understand accents etc.

As came up on another thread, you are close to decision making in the NHS. From what I am hearing, obviously without the same insights, is that August 2025, ie when the current F2s finish, is when the backlog of those without jobs or training will hit critical mass. Do is this something that is addressed in these documents.

I assume by "anti-foreign doctor" you mean racist. It is very strange that someone in your position would take this view. Surely the NHS is very aware that those most affected are overseas doctors recruited on short term contracts and who have brought their families over, but who now can't find work.

F2s are generally in a better position. They may have family support or family homes they can live in. They have secure residency status, so are more easily to seek work in other industries. They will not have taken out loans to pay for agencies to help them get their first job here. They may have little alternative but to hope for a couple of NHS bank shifts a month and to drive Ubers for the rest of the time.

If you read the whole thread, you will see that yes MN DC are affected, but so to are nurses, physios, midwives, GPs wanting to return after a career break and more. The point is that RESIDENTS, ie those already in the country, should have priority, especially for entry level jobs, the same as just about every country in the world. . If you feel that this is anti foreign doctors you should leave your ivory tower and head off to your local A&E to see the mix of staff there. If any were to lose their jobs for any reason, under the current approach, they will struggle to find another.

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Auchencar · 11/03/2025 09:58

These threads - and this has been pointed out by several senior doctors as well as others - are very anti IMG. Once called out, a hasty retreat was made to then exempt IMGs currently in the country from the antipathy but the overall thrust is that British nationals should take priority over international competition even if the former are less meritorious. I don't know quite how that can be dressed other than being anti IMG.

Auchencar · 11/03/2025 10:01

I'm unclear how I can be accused by you of being close to decision making in the NHS and at the same time be wholly unaware of contemporary staffing in the typical A&E (my own A&E is 100% white British so fails to make the point you wish).

I wonder if you've taken a few minutes to read even the latest GMC report?

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 11/03/2025 10:52

@Auchencar I have not kept up with this thread, but we all know that senior doctors are in a very different and more advantageous position themselves. I don't think young British doctors are against IMGs at all. They aren't racist.

They do resent the competition, and being pitted against them for jobs. They resent them being used to lower wages in the market, whilst also competing with PAs. They resent receiving plan 2 salaries whilst senior doctors negotiated that they be excluded from this, themselves. They recent at the same time paying student loans back that senior doctors never had to pay. But of course you know all this.

Auchencar · 11/03/2025 10:58

marmaladeandpeanutbutter I know very well that young British doctors aren't collectively racist!

My comments were exclusively about the tone of these threads.

And yes, the student loan repayments are a curse - especially tough for those having to rent in overpriced areas simply to do their job.

mumsneedwine · 11/03/2025 11:21

Being an IMG has nothing to do with race. My school is 95% BAME and in London.

It's to do with training costs being wasted if we end up with unemployed UK graduates.

UK graduates who are £100,000+ in debt and don't have rich parents to help them pay rent or risk locum work.

What a waste to not employ the staff we have paid to train and instead drain overseas medical staff when their own countries really need them.

Auchencar · 11/03/2025 11:37

This is all about British people for British jobs but in fact it's not even about the bigger picture. This is all about the self interest of a tiny number of MN posters whose DC haven't done the basics to augment their CV and the parents are frustrated at what they thought would be a straight ride through. The fact that we have a diverse population in London is neither here nor there.

mumsneedwine · 11/03/2025 11:46

And again you make it personal. My own DD is just fine thanks. But the many many students I've helped get into medicine are not. Stop playing that 'mummy' card. It's not true

Auchencar · 11/03/2025 11:55

mumsneedwine I'm afraid that the threads speak for themselves and the consultants who chose to contribute made clear what they thought about the narrowness of the threads and the entitlement on display.

Are you asking us to believe that not one of your students have got training posts in the past three years? Or even two years? And despite so many apparently reading Medicine at Oxford and Cambridge? (I happen to know that Oxford F2s at least are not having a significant problem in securing training/ interviews). Something doesn't sound quite right Confused

Needmoresleep · 11/03/2025 12:19

It is standard across the world to give job market priority to residents. The UK health sector is an exception.

Like the UK other countries have lots of newly qualified doctors looking for work. It seems to be that there are two logical solutions:

  1. give UK residents priority for the entry level jobs they need to build their careers.
  2. accept that UK qualified doctors are not able to compete effectively with oversea applicants, at least on the selection criteria currently used, and so just recruit from overseas and close our medical schools. rseas trained

What is not acceptable is to allow young people to believe they can be doctors but then not offer them a career path.

My suggestions for immediate policy action are:

  • taking entry level doctor jobs off the shortage occupation skills list.
  • allowing F2s to apply for positions currently ringfenced for Physician Associates.
  • reformulating training posts where they remain unfilled to enable them to be given to F2s with prior experience in the department who can hit the ground running.
  • providing F2s and other doctors in the UK looking for jobs with career and job search support, similar to that received by doctors recruited through overseas agencies.
  • urgent research into F2 perceptions of their options as part of an overall retention exercise.
OP posts:
mumsneedwine · 11/03/2025 12:52

@Auchencar you just don't listen. We are talking about THIS year. Where competition ratios have risen to a ridiculous level. THIS year things have changed. For UK graduates it is ridiculous - 37,000 people sat MRSA - there are only 12,000 from the UK.

THIS year is different.

Image have nothing to do with race, to suggest so is racist to all the young UK BAME doctors who just want a job.

mumsneedwine · 11/03/2025 12:53

@Auchencar How do you know all the Oxford F2s ? Do you know the 3 in Severn and the 2 in Peninsula ? Or do you just know the ones in London ? Weird to know all 300+ of them so personally !

DominoDaancing · 11/03/2025 12:59

Just a note to say that there is a thread on reddit doctors about the Resident Doctors Conference and the issue of prioritising UK graduates. Might be worth a look.

Auchencar · 11/03/2025 13:00

mumsneedwine how I know that the outcomes are pretty good with Oxford graduates is not actually your business and it doesn't involve me knowing each of them personally. If you want to ask the Oxford Medical School about outcomes, it might possibly oblige (or it might not :)).

Sorry, but just to clarify: are you saying that you sent five students to Oxford to read Medicine in 2017? And two went to Severn and three to Peninsula? So are the ones who all opted to stay on in Oxford- you mentioned that all of your students had opted to stay in Oxford rather than go back home to London - in addition to the tally of five? Confused

Needmoresleep · 11/03/2025 13:03

@mumsneedwine before MN shut down their direct messaging, someone messaged me to say that BAPIO, the training academy were on this thread

https://bapiotrainingacademy.com/mrcp-mrcgp-plus-mba-programme/ (and other programmes designed to help doctors land UK jobs.)

I would not know whether this accounts for some of the diverts, accusations of racism, or the negative views of young UK trained doctors by "Consultants" and others. But it has been odd that a concern: doctors, nurses, midwives etc not being able to find work, is attracting such acrimony.

It may be worth considering whether some posters are bad actors and ignoring them, to allow room for those with constructive contributions.
.

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Auchencar · 11/03/2025 13:10

Anyone disagreeing with you now cannot be in the medical profession and also has to be a 'bad actor'. Extraordinary.

I think that a consultant (sorry, 'consultant') who had been especially rudely treated on one of your previous threads did say that they kept intending to leave the thread but then more rudeness was lobbed their way and they felt obliged to respond.

I find myself in exactly that boat.

None of your observations about what foundation doctors need to do to prepare for the next step are new. They may be new to you as a parent that's all. Parents should be leaving their DC to navigate this at their age. It's absurd to infantilize them in this way.

Needmoresleep · 11/03/2025 13:10

DominoDaancing · 11/03/2025 12:59

Just a note to say that there is a thread on reddit doctors about the Resident Doctors Conference and the issue of prioritising UK graduates. Might be worth a look.

Thanks. Do you have a link? (I find Reddit really hard to find my way around, but when I have followed a link it is clear that conversation amongst doctors, whether UK trained or IMG, backs up our concerns.)

Though some clearly don't believe there is a problem, the word is starting to filter through. It affects everyone who is a patient or taxpayer. It particularly affects those who live in areas which won't be first choice for either Oxbridge/London high flyers or for affluent IMGs able to take the time and pay for courses designed to help their applications.

For all the fuss about the shortage of training places, these are plenty that are vacant, due to the mismatch between where the places are and the doctors with fistfulls of academic achievements who are being selected.

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DominoDaancing · 11/03/2025 13:16

@Needmoresleep I also struggle with reddit to be honest!

Hopefully the link works:
https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorsUK/comments/1j77nmr/doctors_vote_to_prioritise_uk_graduates/

Needmoresleep · 11/03/2025 13:24

Interesting that the split is to prioritise British grads over IMGS.

I would argue for prioritising doctors already resident in the UK over those living overseas. It would fit in better with standard immigration law, ie reinstate the RLMT that Boris lifted in 2021.

I also don't get the sole focus on training. F3 jobs are needed. And indeed jobs for other HCPs affected like newly qualified nurses and midwives.

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mumsneedwine · 11/03/2025 13:29

I'd prioritise 2 years in NHS for training posts and UK graduate for Foundation jobs. Not dependent on race or nationality, just where trained you.

Needmoresleep · 11/03/2025 14:15

I am looking at some of Wes Streetings management changes. Tom Kibasi, Dr Penny Dash, Lord Darzi all seem very London centric. I hope it will go further than a rearranging of the deckchairs. If not one has to question whether the NHS can survive.

I don't really understand what is devolved and what is not. Allocation of Foundation places and selection for speciality training are UK wide. Yet health seems to be devolved.

I think that matters. London hospitals and other tertiary referral centres clearly need people with narrow specialisations. From what I am told places like Dorchester (I am currently catching up on Hardy) probably don't. Are we ensuring that some of those who get selected for training will want to take up training posts in out of the way places. Are we ensuring that we have enough people wanting to take general surgery, or general paediatrics jobs in smaller hospitals. This is where patients in rural areas arrive first even if the Consultant then needs to seek advice from a tertiary referral centre or get their patient transferred.

Or are we just training a small number of very academic specialists for tertiary referral jobs and then looking overseas to fill remaining vacant posts?

OP posts:
Clavinova · 11/03/2025 18:01

Needmoresleep
When Boris first started post Brexit trade talks with India I remember jobs for doctors being one of the items on the table. India wanted jobs and training for its newly qualified doctors

Do you have any links for that claim, otherwise I think you have misremembered. I remember India asking for 'business' visas at the time.