Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs

795 replies

Needmoresleep · 16/02/2025 15:22

Unbelievable but true.

Doctors, nurses and other health care professionals now have to compete for jobs and training with applicants from across the world. No priority is given to those already in the country.

Even ordinary entry level jobs can attract hundreds of applicants within a few hours. Newly qualified doctors and nurses need that first job to get the experience that overseas applicants will be able to offer.

In 2021 immigration law was changed and something called the Resident Market Labour Test was dropped for health and care workers. It means that the UK may be the only country not to prioritise those already in the country.

The previous thread:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5267503-aibu-to-be-furious-that-there-are-no-jobs-for-young-doctors?page=1
included a number of stories. An entire graduating class of nurses unable to find that first job whilst administrators from the local hospital were taking recruitment trips to Asia. An experienced GP wanting to return from a career break only to discovering that she, and others in a similar position, could not find work, a consultant surprised at how well qualified locums seeking zero hours, short notice, cover work are. The number of overseas doctors applying for the limited number of specialist training positions in the UK doubled between 2023 and 2025.

A group of us, who have been on the higher education board since our DC were first applying to medical school, recently discovered that none of our DC, coming to the end of their foundation years (F1& F2) expect to get anything other than the odd shift with NHS bank. Most see moving to Australia as the only way to stay in medicine. They say the same applies to their peers.

Our young doctors have spent seven or eight years getting to where they are, and have £100,000 of student loans to repay. The taxpayer has spent £250,000 on each of them.

Unfortunately the NHS does not appear to keep data on the number of applicants per vacancy, nor on vacancies that, because of the numbers applying, close within a few hours. It also does not appear to question why such a small proportion of F2s are progressing within the NHS. Instead there seems to be an assumption that this wastage is somehow natural, and that the solution is to re-double international recruitment efforts, to increase medical school places, and to replace traditional junior doctor roles with less skilled Physician Associates. Measures that will only increase the problem.

If things are not changed, even more of our skilled and dedicated young people will find themselves without jobs. We would welcome experiences, information and ideas.

Please also spread the word, write to your MP, tell people in a position to influence who may not be aware. We have a shortage of doctors, nurses, midwives, and paramedics. Our first priority is to ensure that those already in the country are able to get jobs.

If young Doctors were asked, and the same will apply to other Health Care Professionals, they would argue that:

  • Busy F2s work long shifts including nights which makes extensive job search difficult
  • Posts often attract hundreds of applicants, and close within a few hours. This level of competition is in itself off-putting
  • Overseas applicants are often supported by agencies who can set alerts for vacancies and ensure that multiple applications are submitted. No such support is offered to UK applicants,
  • These agencies will help with the writing of applications so they score well against NHS selection criteria. Again no such careers support is offered to UK applicants.
  • The Government/NHS offer incentives for overseas doctors including bringing in dependents and scope for future citizenship, as well as some exemptions from some exams and relocation packages. These may motivate overseas doctors to apply for entry level jobs even if they are overqualified. Entry level jobs which our newly qualified young people need.
  • Various extensive and expensive courses are advertised on the internet designed to give participants an advantage when applying for specialist training in the UK. In contrast many UK medical schools do very little to ensure that their graduates have the additional academic super-curricular that, with current levels of competition, are effectively requirements to gain a training place. This year it is predicted that only 50% of the around 4,500 places will go to graduates from UK medical schools, even though it is recognised that for many UK training is simply a passport to well paid jobs in private hospitals in Singapore, Dubai or their home countries. This is poor workforce planning. If we are going to avoid a future shortage of consultants we need to prioritise those likely to build a future in the UK.
Many young doctors will see a couple of years in Australia as a reasonable fall-back. They accept that they will be taking jobs Australians don’t want and will be at the back of the queue when it comes to specialist training, but they will also be gaining experience in a different healthcare environment.

Others, including those with family or caring responsibilities, or those who brought their families over when offered fixed term contracts, simply face unemployment. We should not be recruiting overseas when we have good, qualified, NHS experienced, doctors, nurses and other HCPs in the UK driving Ubers or working in Tesco.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
84
WaryCrow · 11/03/2025 18:08

Auchencar · 11/03/2025 09:58

These threads - and this has been pointed out by several senior doctors as well as others - are very anti IMG. Once called out, a hasty retreat was made to then exempt IMGs currently in the country from the antipathy but the overall thrust is that British nationals should take priority over international competition even if the former are less meritorious. I don't know quite how that can be dressed other than being anti IMG.

And what’s wrong with that?
Why do you believe everyone in the world has more right to live in our country than those of us who live and work in its system, play by its rules and enable it to keep running?

We know the training regime in this country is hard. The cost of it is beyond a joke. We have no idea what training people coming here from abroad have, and they have not had to deal with its economic inequalities. I am tired, after having worked for nothing over decades myself, of watching locals trying ever harder, working ever harder, only to be passed over by cheap foreigners who can come here, do a 2 year stint, and go home with enough money to build themselves a mansion in their own country. Half the time they can’t even communicate properly with patients here, but it doesn’t matter because they are cheap for our ruling classes who don’t have to use the NHS themselves.

Auchencar · 11/03/2025 19:46

Well I would say rather a lot is wrong with it but you don't seem as though you'd actually welcome a reasoned argument so let's park this shall we?

mumsneedwine · 11/03/2025 20:25

No one has ever said anything anti IMG - if so please post it so we can see. But I am pro providing jobs for staff trained by the NHS as it's not cost effective otherwise.

Some IMGs are British. I still don't think they should get jobs before UK trained staff - international or otherwise.

Calling people racist is such an easy insult to shut people up.

Auchencar · 11/03/2025 20:36

mumsneedwine you're trying to fabricate something here which hasn't been said.

If you want an answer to your own question then it's up to you to re-read the four or five related threads and judge the tone for yourself and maybe ask yourself why a number of posters have complained that the threads are very Little England and very anti foreign doctors.

Lord knows how much we owe as a nation to foreign doctors, in terms of medical advance and breakthroughs in scientific research. All this seems not only incredibly small minded but also incredibly ungrateful.

Clavinova · 11/03/2025 20:39

mumsneedwine
No one has ever said anything anti IMG - if so please post it so we can see

Some examples from earlier in the thread:

and those 3Bs would get you into a medical school abroad. They require such lower standards but the doctors can come back and work here.

Unfortunately, there are also currently some IMGs walking directly into speciality training from abroad without working a day in the NHS, who have then not only struggled to cope but take up large amounts of existing staff's time to support.

They are potentially a threat to patient safety unless they are closely supervised.

There are possibly risks with employing newcomers from abroad who have not had any experience working in the NHS. Not sure patients would be happy seeing incompetent IMGs (as discussed in this thread) who after being employed by the NHS have been found to be clueless. As it turned out, some of these examples lacked medical knowledge and procedures and some appeared to have put in fraudulent applications

As in my previous post overseas agencies are offering expensive courses to help applicants ace the scoring system.. for a fee.

There is also some concern about quality control. Having research published in the UK is tough. Probably tougher than in some other countries. Ditto winning competitions.

Auchencar · 11/03/2025 20:45

mumsneedwine · 11/03/2025 20:25

No one has ever said anything anti IMG - if so please post it so we can see. But I am pro providing jobs for staff trained by the NHS as it's not cost effective otherwise.

Some IMGs are British. I still don't think they should get jobs before UK trained staff - international or otherwise.

Calling people racist is such an easy insult to shut people up.

There really is no magic in 'UK trained staff'. The best candidates should get the jobs. Medecins sans frontieres.

These accounts of not being able to understand accents are shameful. What is it about this country that we can't learn other languages and then shout at people in English when we go abroad to try to make them understand us. It's just embarrassing.

mumsneedwine · 11/03/2025 21:05

@Auchencar I have never said anything about anyone's accent. You should hear mine !

I'm afraid I disagree about who should be prioritised for jobs as our staff are the only ones who have to compete with the rest of the world. Other countries prioritise their own staff because they are more likely to stay, understand the system and can repay the cost of the investment from tax payers. Otherwise we may as well just close UK medical schools and just recruit from abroad.

And recruiting from red list countries should be illegal.

Auchencar · 11/03/2025 21:34

No no quite. You weren't the poster who said anything about accents. It was someone else entirely.

W0tnow · 12/03/2025 10:35

What am I missing? What is wrong with the view that the NHS (or any private company) should be compelled to employ adequately qualified citizens/residents for any and all vacancies. Unless of course there is a shortage of skills. In which case specialised visas would apply?

Needmoresleep · 12/03/2025 10:55

W0tnow · 12/03/2025 10:35

What am I missing? What is wrong with the view that the NHS (or any private company) should be compelled to employ adequately qualified citizens/residents for any and all vacancies. Unless of course there is a shortage of skills. In which case specialised visas would apply?

Completely agree.

But not what the law post 2021 says. The Resident Labour Market Test, which would have required the NHS to employ suitably qualified doctors already in the UK for entry level jobs, was lifted. This means that the NHS is able to recruit much more experienced doctors from overseas on entry level pay. It also means that our newly qualified doctors are struggling to find work.

Ditto over half the specialist training positions went to graduates of overseas medical schools.

It means this summer a whole load will be heading to Australia, which does impose the RLMT. So our young people will be last in the queue for jobs and training positions, but at least they will have work.

You will see plenty on this thread argue that this is the right approach as it means that the NHS is able to hire more experienced staff for less money. However there is a cost both of educating doctors we don't plan to use, and the pressure that immigration puts on schools, housing and other public infrastructure.

OP posts:
Needmoresleep · 12/03/2025 11:07

Clavinova · 11/03/2025 18:01

Needmoresleep
When Boris first started post Brexit trade talks with India I remember jobs for doctors being one of the items on the table. India wanted jobs and training for its newly qualified doctors

Do you have any links for that claim, otherwise I think you have misremembered. I remember India asking for 'business' visas at the time.

I have a fairly clear recollection of reading something about the UK being interested in more specialist Indian doctors coming to the UK whereas India was keen to send newly qualified doctors, as they have a surplus. Visas were certainly were certainly on the agenda.

"Boris Johnson has himself been highlighting the role that issuing visas could play in filling UK skills shortages, suggesting he may be paving the way for expanding eligibility - but it is not clear how that will be received by voters. Immigration has proved a touchy issue, particularly since the 2016 Brexit referendum."

From a BBC articles 22 April 22. (I could google further but am on my way out!)

I heard, much more informally, that the UK approached Malaysia on the same subject. I don't think anything came of it, as they have the same issue. Lots of private medical schools pumping out medical school graduates, too many for their relatively small public health systems to absorb, whilst the demand in their private sectors is mainly for consultants.

Lifting of the RMLT has presumably had the same effect, as it has means that entry level jobs are now attracting huge interest so are easily filled.

OP posts:
Needmoresleep · 12/03/2025 11:14

DominoDaancing · 11/03/2025 12:59

Just a note to say that there is a thread on reddit doctors about the Resident Doctors Conference and the issue of prioritising UK graduates. Might be worth a look.

I assume Resident Doctors are post foundation, so have jobs but want training.

One problem with the BMA as an outside seems to be that there are so many Committees which represent so many different interests.

Given the number coming through Foundation each year and the number of Training places (even before you count the IMGs and Resident doctors who are also trying for places) it is clear that most need jobs. Basic jobs which will give them a chance to gain experience and a chance to sit/resit exams to get on training. Which Committee is speaking up for them?

OP posts:
W0tnow · 12/03/2025 11:37

The argument of employing ‘on merit’ or the ‘most qualified’ sounds a bit disingenuous to be honest. It seems ‘overqualified’ is more accurate?

Transcontinentalcyclist · 12/03/2025 12:38

Needmoresleep · 12/03/2025 11:14

I assume Resident Doctors are post foundation, so have jobs but want training.

One problem with the BMA as an outside seems to be that there are so many Committees which represent so many different interests.

Given the number coming through Foundation each year and the number of Training places (even before you count the IMGs and Resident doctors who are also trying for places) it is clear that most need jobs. Basic jobs which will give them a chance to gain experience and a chance to sit/resit exams to get on training. Which Committee is speaking up for them?

"Resident doctor" is the new term for those doctors who were previously called "junior doctors". So yes this does include FY1 and FY2 doctors

Lovecatsanddogs · 12/03/2025 13:37

UKRDC UK graduate prioritisation policy FAQs

Not sure if this has been posted already.

MrsPeregrine · 12/03/2025 13:54

Barleypilaf · 16/02/2025 15:40

YANBU - Boris Johnson got rid of the Residency Labour Market Test for all jobs. The situation is madness and the doctor/nurse situation highlights it. The U.K. spends hundreds of thousands to train medical students, but then they are unemployed. It is not because there are no jobs, but because the NHS is recruiting overseas, with reduced standards (exemptions from exams)

Before Johnson, employers could only hire from abroad if there was no suitable U.K. candidate. This should be reinstated.

But if that wasn’t the case then surely that means a lot of the migrant arrivals who are trained as HCP can’t practice in their profession of choice and find it harder to find work?

Clavinova · 12/03/2025 19:26

Before Johnson, employers could only hire from abroad if there was no suitable U.K. candidate

This was discussed earlier in the thread - employers could hire EU/EEA candidates applying from abroad (freedom of movement/single market rules).

Auchencar · 12/03/2025 20:01

Lovecatsanddogs · 12/03/2025 13:37

UKRDC UK graduate prioritisation policy FAQs

Not sure if this has been posted already.

Edited

Thanks for this. Don't know if anyone else has come to the same conclusion but between this and the GMC reports that I linked, the general movement seems to be towards a much larger pool of LEDs with better conditions than currently. There's obviously recognition that increasing numbers of those emerging from UK medical schools lack the potential to move far up the ranks but can augment the pool of doctors operating at a lower level. This makes sense in all sorts of ways, and certainly from the financial pov.

Clavinova · 12/03/2025 20:07

Needmoresleep · 12/03/2025 11:07

I have a fairly clear recollection of reading something about the UK being interested in more specialist Indian doctors coming to the UK whereas India was keen to send newly qualified doctors, as they have a surplus. Visas were certainly were certainly on the agenda.

"Boris Johnson has himself been highlighting the role that issuing visas could play in filling UK skills shortages, suggesting he may be paving the way for expanding eligibility - but it is not clear how that will be received by voters. Immigration has proved a touchy issue, particularly since the 2016 Brexit referendum."

From a BBC articles 22 April 22. (I could google further but am on my way out!)

I heard, much more informally, that the UK approached Malaysia on the same subject. I don't think anything came of it, as they have the same issue. Lots of private medical schools pumping out medical school graduates, too many for their relatively small public health systems to absorb, whilst the demand in their private sectors is mainly for consultants.

Lifting of the RMLT has presumably had the same effect, as it has means that entry level jobs are now attracting huge interest so are easily filled.

Edited

Visas were certainly on the agenda

I agree that visas were on the agenda but I don't remember your earlier claim - "India wanted jobs and training for its newly qualified doctors" as something mentioned by the media at the time. I remember 'business people and IT experts' being mentioned as part of a trade deal.

I have a fairly clear recollection of reading something about the UK being interested in more specialist Indian doctors coming to the UK

Is that disputed?

Clavinova · 12/03/2025 20:40

Needmoresleep · 11/03/2025 13:24

Interesting that the split is to prioritise British grads over IMGS.

I would argue for prioritising doctors already resident in the UK over those living overseas. It would fit in better with standard immigration law, ie reinstate the RLMT that Boris lifted in 2021.

I also don't get the sole focus on training. F3 jobs are needed. And indeed jobs for other HCPs affected like newly qualified nurses and midwives.

I still don't think 2021 is the most relevant date here (as per my earlier posts) - 2021 is when broader changes to immigration rules were introduced, but prior to that, doctors were added to the shortage occupation list in 2019 - which meant they were exempt from the RLMT.

I've just clicked through some of the r/doctors links - as far as I can see, most of the posters on this issue are referring to 2019, e.g.

Retention & the RLMT: why is no UK party talking about this?
Doctors were added to the UK Shortage Occupation List (SOL) in 2019, thus making them exempt from the Resident Labour Market Test (RLMT)...

Just a little reminder. It was our own Royal College of Physicians which advised the government in 2019 to remove priority for UK grads by suggesting all medical jobs be added to the Shortage Occupation List...

What Happened in 2019?
Before 2019, IMGs had to pass the Resident Labour Market Test (RLMT)...

New posts on this thread. Refresh page