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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs

795 replies

Needmoresleep · 16/02/2025 15:22

Unbelievable but true.

Doctors, nurses and other health care professionals now have to compete for jobs and training with applicants from across the world. No priority is given to those already in the country.

Even ordinary entry level jobs can attract hundreds of applicants within a few hours. Newly qualified doctors and nurses need that first job to get the experience that overseas applicants will be able to offer.

In 2021 immigration law was changed and something called the Resident Market Labour Test was dropped for health and care workers. It means that the UK may be the only country not to prioritise those already in the country.

The previous thread:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5267503-aibu-to-be-furious-that-there-are-no-jobs-for-young-doctors?page=1
included a number of stories. An entire graduating class of nurses unable to find that first job whilst administrators from the local hospital were taking recruitment trips to Asia. An experienced GP wanting to return from a career break only to discovering that she, and others in a similar position, could not find work, a consultant surprised at how well qualified locums seeking zero hours, short notice, cover work are. The number of overseas doctors applying for the limited number of specialist training positions in the UK doubled between 2023 and 2025.

A group of us, who have been on the higher education board since our DC were first applying to medical school, recently discovered that none of our DC, coming to the end of their foundation years (F1& F2) expect to get anything other than the odd shift with NHS bank. Most see moving to Australia as the only way to stay in medicine. They say the same applies to their peers.

Our young doctors have spent seven or eight years getting to where they are, and have £100,000 of student loans to repay. The taxpayer has spent £250,000 on each of them.

Unfortunately the NHS does not appear to keep data on the number of applicants per vacancy, nor on vacancies that, because of the numbers applying, close within a few hours. It also does not appear to question why such a small proportion of F2s are progressing within the NHS. Instead there seems to be an assumption that this wastage is somehow natural, and that the solution is to re-double international recruitment efforts, to increase medical school places, and to replace traditional junior doctor roles with less skilled Physician Associates. Measures that will only increase the problem.

If things are not changed, even more of our skilled and dedicated young people will find themselves without jobs. We would welcome experiences, information and ideas.

Please also spread the word, write to your MP, tell people in a position to influence who may not be aware. We have a shortage of doctors, nurses, midwives, and paramedics. Our first priority is to ensure that those already in the country are able to get jobs.

If young Doctors were asked, and the same will apply to other Health Care Professionals, they would argue that:

  • Busy F2s work long shifts including nights which makes extensive job search difficult
  • Posts often attract hundreds of applicants, and close within a few hours. This level of competition is in itself off-putting
  • Overseas applicants are often supported by agencies who can set alerts for vacancies and ensure that multiple applications are submitted. No such support is offered to UK applicants,
  • These agencies will help with the writing of applications so they score well against NHS selection criteria. Again no such careers support is offered to UK applicants.
  • The Government/NHS offer incentives for overseas doctors including bringing in dependents and scope for future citizenship, as well as some exemptions from some exams and relocation packages. These may motivate overseas doctors to apply for entry level jobs even if they are overqualified. Entry level jobs which our newly qualified young people need.
  • Various extensive and expensive courses are advertised on the internet designed to give participants an advantage when applying for specialist training in the UK. In contrast many UK medical schools do very little to ensure that their graduates have the additional academic super-curricular that, with current levels of competition, are effectively requirements to gain a training place. This year it is predicted that only 50% of the around 4,500 places will go to graduates from UK medical schools, even though it is recognised that for many UK training is simply a passport to well paid jobs in private hospitals in Singapore, Dubai or their home countries. This is poor workforce planning. If we are going to avoid a future shortage of consultants we need to prioritise those likely to build a future in the UK.
Many young doctors will see a couple of years in Australia as a reasonable fall-back. They accept that they will be taking jobs Australians don’t want and will be at the back of the queue when it comes to specialist training, but they will also be gaining experience in a different healthcare environment.

Others, including those with family or caring responsibilities, or those who brought their families over when offered fixed term contracts, simply face unemployment. We should not be recruiting overseas when we have good, qualified, NHS experienced, doctors, nurses and other HCPs in the UK driving Ubers or working in Tesco.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
84
anyolddinosaur · 17/02/2025 18:38

First the NHS is wasting masses of money on this case that could have been spent on more posts for young health service staff.

Second the BMA has not supported the CASS review. It's not a single young doctor it's more of them.

I'm not going to read the whole thread - it's too many young doctors going along with unscientific bullshit. If Dr Upton has managed to be treated as so "special" maybe all your children declare themselves trans - or have some integrity and tell the BMA not to support unscientific claptrap.

Perhaps overseas doctors have a better grasp of science and of team working.

OneMorePiece · 17/02/2025 18:42

Needmoresleep · 17/02/2025 17:55

Cheaper and less assertive?

Yes, and having made such an upheaval to come to the UK, they are less likely to resist any demands placed upon them leaving them possibly open to exploitation.

Many IMGs come from countries that are short of doctors. The UK should prioritise UK based IMGs and MGs instead of facilitating this brain drain from other countries.

mumsneedwine · 17/02/2025 18:47

Competition ratios ? This year they are so much worse ....

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
mumsneedwine · 17/02/2025 18:51

And law is not the same. Law places are not capped by the government. Medicine are. It costs no more to train a law graduate than a history one. Doctors do 5 years and need placements which cost money (apparently- I'm not sure why).
There are currently more law students in England than there are lawyers. Medicine places are capped because the premise was they'd all be employed. And they would be, if UK staff had priority.

Marchesman · 17/02/2025 19:03

mumsneedwine · 17/02/2025 18:47

Competition ratios ? This year they are so much worse ....

Not much different from ten years ago. It is also clear that then candidates were prepared to apply to more than one speciality in order to have a job.

https://medical.hee.nhs.uk/medical-training-recruitment/medical-specialty-training/competition-ratios/2013-competition-ratios

Marchesman · 17/02/2025 19:38

mumsneedwine · 17/02/2025 18:51

And law is not the same. Law places are not capped by the government. Medicine are. It costs no more to train a law graduate than a history one. Doctors do 5 years and need placements which cost money (apparently- I'm not sure why).
There are currently more law students in England than there are lawyers. Medicine places are capped because the premise was they'd all be employed. And they would be, if UK staff had priority.

Junior hospital doctor numbers are determined in anticipation of the number of consultant posts that will need to be filled, and these depend on the number of available theatres, beds etc.. Increasing junior doctor numbers per se would be pointless.

Furthermore, appointing doctors on any basis other than merit would not be good idea. I have supervised a fair number of juniors who quite rightly did not progress. It is silly to suggest that having got into medical school an individual should have a home run to a senior post in hospital medicine or general practice. I know of no premise that would have led them to expect that they would all be employed in a way of their choosing.

OneMorePiece · 17/02/2025 19:47

Marchesman · 17/02/2025 19:03

Not much different from ten years ago. It is also clear that then candidates were prepared to apply to more than one speciality in order to have a job.

https://medical.hee.nhs.uk/medical-training-recruitment/medical-specialty-training/competition-ratios/2013-competition-ratios

It was different then. 10 years ago, UK applicants were protected by the Resident Labour Market Test so there wasn't the deluge of applicants from overseas applying then. The RLMT ensured that UK applicants were prioritised for jobs ahead of overseas workers.

OneMorePiece · 17/02/2025 20:06

Marchesman · 17/02/2025 19:38

Junior hospital doctor numbers are determined in anticipation of the number of consultant posts that will need to be filled, and these depend on the number of available theatres, beds etc.. Increasing junior doctor numbers per se would be pointless.

Furthermore, appointing doctors on any basis other than merit would not be good idea. I have supervised a fair number of juniors who quite rightly did not progress. It is silly to suggest that having got into medical school an individual should have a home run to a senior post in hospital medicine or general practice. I know of no premise that would have led them to expect that they would all be employed in a way of their choosing.

Perhaps you could shed some light on this too? It's a recruitment drive that the NHS appears to be involved in? Not sure if and how exactly the NHS is involved, but came across this online.

What do you think of applicants coming through this recruitment drive or similar?

https://goocampusuk.com/mrcp-mba

It would be great to have your opinion or anyone else's on how this scheme works within the NHS process? How much are NHS trusts paying for these applicants?

The current NHS recruitment system, as I understand it, was designed to make it fair and equitable to all applicants, regardless of their background.

Schemes like this are unfair if they are potentially fasttracking applicants from overseas who are prepared to pay extortionate prices. It's mostly wealthy overseas applicants that can pay up to £32000. It's also questionable whether they have got in on merit or because they had the means to pay.

To a member of the general public, it looks like some new International Medical Graduates (IMGs) who are yet to enter the country are potentially getting an advantage over IMGs and UK medical grads already in the country.

At a time when there is a limited number of posts for everyone that is applying, UK grads and UK IMGs should be prioritised ahead of those IMGs still abroad.

Finallylostit · 17/02/2025 20:07

OP -from all your posts on here and the other thread- your DD has not actually applied just decided to go to Australia?

You can do research, present etc whilst working - most people do.

Your knowledge of the working week of many resident doctors seems far from the reality. The NHS website has plenty of jobs on it. Surely some competition is good?

Clavinova · 17/02/2025 20:08

mumsneedwine
We have unemployed GPs driving Ubers

To be fair - a second-hand account about one anonymous GP without the full details is hardly a reliable anecdote. In any case, the recently qualified GP is said to have declined the option of working in a hospital as an SHO - he chose the 'less stressful and more flexible' option of driving an Uber'.

OneMorePiece · 17/02/2025 20:14

Clavinova · 17/02/2025 20:08

mumsneedwine
We have unemployed GPs driving Ubers

To be fair - a second-hand account about one anonymous GP without the full details is hardly a reliable anecdote. In any case, the recently qualified GP is said to have declined the option of working in a hospital as an SHO - he chose the 'less stressful and more flexible' option of driving an Uber'.

There are unemployed GPs. See here;

dauk.org/glut-of-unemployed-and-underemployed-gps-ready-to-work/

Needmoresleep · 17/02/2025 20:30

Clavinova · 17/02/2025 20:08

mumsneedwine
We have unemployed GPs driving Ubers

To be fair - a second-hand account about one anonymous GP without the full details is hardly a reliable anecdote. In any case, the recently qualified GP is said to have declined the option of working in a hospital as an SHO - he chose the 'less stressful and more flexible' option of driving an Uber'.

Clavinova, if you read through the previous thread, you will have seen a strong testimony from a GP with 10 years experience who was struggling to find a job after a career break, and who claimed she was far from unique.

World wide competition for jobs. When there are skilled people in the UK able to do those jobs we should not be recruiting from overseas.

OP posts:
Clavinova · 17/02/2025 20:33

mumsneedwine · 16/02/2025 21:02

@Clavinova even if you have the right to work anywhere in the EU, you also need to be fluent in the language you want to be a doctor in. So not really free movement.

Relatively recently those rules did not apply;

2016 - Guidelines under the Recognition of Professional Qualifications Directive rule that doctors from the European Economic Area cannot be subject to any burden - such as a rigorous English language test - that is not placed on Irish workers.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/crackdown-over-foreign-doctors-limited-english/35153545.html

Clavinova · 17/02/2025 20:37

Needmoresleep · 17/02/2025 20:30

Clavinova, if you read through the previous thread, you will have seen a strong testimony from a GP with 10 years experience who was struggling to find a job after a career break, and who claimed she was far from unique.

World wide competition for jobs. When there are skilled people in the UK able to do those jobs we should not be recruiting from overseas.

Fair enough but I don't see why unsubstantiated anecdotes about Uber drivers are necessary.

Needmoresleep · 17/02/2025 20:44

Marchesman · 17/02/2025 19:38

Junior hospital doctor numbers are determined in anticipation of the number of consultant posts that will need to be filled, and these depend on the number of available theatres, beds etc.. Increasing junior doctor numbers per se would be pointless.

Furthermore, appointing doctors on any basis other than merit would not be good idea. I have supervised a fair number of juniors who quite rightly did not progress. It is silly to suggest that having got into medical school an individual should have a home run to a senior post in hospital medicine or general practice. I know of no premise that would have led them to expect that they would all be employed in a way of their choosing.

What happens then to IMGs who seek UK training in order to return to their home countries as consultants.

Is this wastage factored in. Given IMGs will take up around 50% of training posts this year is there a need to increase the overall number of training posts to compensate.

If everything is so calculated, why is the NHS having to recruit consultants from overseas. Doesn't thar suggest we are not training enough.

How do you define merit. My understanding is that all our DC did well at medical school.and have received strong appraisals since. Good enough for the Australia. We have the jobs. It's just that we are choosing to hire PAs and staff from overseas.

OP posts:
OneMorePiece · 17/02/2025 20:46

Finallylostit · 17/02/2025 20:07

OP -from all your posts on here and the other thread- your DD has not actually applied just decided to go to Australia?

You can do research, present etc whilst working - most people do.

Your knowledge of the working week of many resident doctors seems far from the reality. The NHS website has plenty of jobs on it. Surely some competition is good?

Your knowledge of the issues facing doctors seems rather out of date, especially your point about competition. See here for an analysis of the issues of concern:

academic.oup.com/pmj/article/100/1184/361/7513585

mathanxiety · 17/02/2025 20:46

Clavinova · 16/02/2025 18:30

Barleypilaf
Before Johnson, employers could only hire from abroad if there was no suitable U.K. candidate.

Clearly not correct when we were members of the EU - not to mention Ireland.

Applicants from former colonies tend to have better English than the average applicant from Spain, Austria, Slovakia, etc.

mathanxiety · 17/02/2025 20:51

Clavinova · 16/02/2025 21:16

It's not splitting hairs - either we are 'the only country in the world' not prioritising our own citizens or we are not.

We left the EU so no longer have its protections

On the previous thread you were complaining about doctors trained in Eastern Europe!

Over six million people have applied to the EU Settlement Scheme, including one million people who were in fact not born in the EU.

How many NHS staff with acquired EU citizenship from other EU countries (who then relocated to the UK - plus their non-EU family members) were in fact born in Africa, Asia or the Americas?

Do you have the answer to that?

Or is it just a stick to beat the EU with because you're a dyed in the wool Brexiteer?

Not every thread here concerning employment in various industries is about Brexit, you know.

Needmoresleep · 17/02/2025 20:52

Clavinova · 17/02/2025 20:37

Fair enough but I don't see why unsubstantiated anecdotes about Uber drivers are necessary.

A detail. Uber driving is a zero hours job that has relatively easy access. You might say MacJobs. Both are used by newspapers to describe people forced to take any work available. There were some headlines about Doctors driving ubers a few months back. They were interviewed. This is likely to happen more often. The most vulnerable group will be IMGs who have come over with their families on fixed term contracts which have now ended. Bank work is drying up. What else would you expect them to do?

OP posts:
mumsneedwine · 17/02/2025 21:02

Medical students with no jobs (eventually they all did, somewhere in the UK)

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-68849847.amp

And a good article to understand the issues

medium.com/cited-sealed-delivered/why-are-thousands-of-doctors-in-the-uk-facing-unemployment-238c90d5e966

Clavinova · 17/02/2025 21:03

mathanxiety · 17/02/2025 20:51

Do you have the answer to that?

Or is it just a stick to beat the EU with because you're a dyed in the wool Brexiteer?

Not every thread here concerning employment in various industries is about Brexit, you know.

That's funny - Brexit was mentioned early on in the thread and on the previous thread.

mumsneedwine · 17/02/2025 21:04

And from Hansard. It's not a hidden problem, many are v aware

medium.com/cited-sealed-delivered/why-are-thousands-of-doctors-in-the-uk-facing-unemployment-238c90d5e966

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
mumsneedwine · 17/02/2025 21:05

Nothing to do with Brexit. These numbers are not coming from the EU alone

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
OneMorePiece · 17/02/2025 21:07

Needmoresleep · 17/02/2025 20:44

What happens then to IMGs who seek UK training in order to return to their home countries as consultants.

Is this wastage factored in. Given IMGs will take up around 50% of training posts this year is there a need to increase the overall number of training posts to compensate.

If everything is so calculated, why is the NHS having to recruit consultants from overseas. Doesn't thar suggest we are not training enough.

How do you define merit. My understanding is that all our DC did well at medical school.and have received strong appraisals since. Good enough for the Australia. We have the jobs. It's just that we are choosing to hire PAs and staff from overseas.

Edited

Perhaps one factor contributing to the consultant shortage could be a result of some older IMGs, having trained in the UK to be consultants, leaving for their home countries to look after elderly parents, warmer climate, better working conditions, etc

It's time to prioritise UK based medics instead of the over reliance on IMGs which runs the risk of repeating this cycle.