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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs

795 replies

Needmoresleep · 16/02/2025 15:22

Unbelievable but true.

Doctors, nurses and other health care professionals now have to compete for jobs and training with applicants from across the world. No priority is given to those already in the country.

Even ordinary entry level jobs can attract hundreds of applicants within a few hours. Newly qualified doctors and nurses need that first job to get the experience that overseas applicants will be able to offer.

In 2021 immigration law was changed and something called the Resident Market Labour Test was dropped for health and care workers. It means that the UK may be the only country not to prioritise those already in the country.

The previous thread:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5267503-aibu-to-be-furious-that-there-are-no-jobs-for-young-doctors?page=1
included a number of stories. An entire graduating class of nurses unable to find that first job whilst administrators from the local hospital were taking recruitment trips to Asia. An experienced GP wanting to return from a career break only to discovering that she, and others in a similar position, could not find work, a consultant surprised at how well qualified locums seeking zero hours, short notice, cover work are. The number of overseas doctors applying for the limited number of specialist training positions in the UK doubled between 2023 and 2025.

A group of us, who have been on the higher education board since our DC were first applying to medical school, recently discovered that none of our DC, coming to the end of their foundation years (F1& F2) expect to get anything other than the odd shift with NHS bank. Most see moving to Australia as the only way to stay in medicine. They say the same applies to their peers.

Our young doctors have spent seven or eight years getting to where they are, and have £100,000 of student loans to repay. The taxpayer has spent £250,000 on each of them.

Unfortunately the NHS does not appear to keep data on the number of applicants per vacancy, nor on vacancies that, because of the numbers applying, close within a few hours. It also does not appear to question why such a small proportion of F2s are progressing within the NHS. Instead there seems to be an assumption that this wastage is somehow natural, and that the solution is to re-double international recruitment efforts, to increase medical school places, and to replace traditional junior doctor roles with less skilled Physician Associates. Measures that will only increase the problem.

If things are not changed, even more of our skilled and dedicated young people will find themselves without jobs. We would welcome experiences, information and ideas.

Please also spread the word, write to your MP, tell people in a position to influence who may not be aware. We have a shortage of doctors, nurses, midwives, and paramedics. Our first priority is to ensure that those already in the country are able to get jobs.

If young Doctors were asked, and the same will apply to other Health Care Professionals, they would argue that:

  • Busy F2s work long shifts including nights which makes extensive job search difficult
  • Posts often attract hundreds of applicants, and close within a few hours. This level of competition is in itself off-putting
  • Overseas applicants are often supported by agencies who can set alerts for vacancies and ensure that multiple applications are submitted. No such support is offered to UK applicants,
  • These agencies will help with the writing of applications so they score well against NHS selection criteria. Again no such careers support is offered to UK applicants.
  • The Government/NHS offer incentives for overseas doctors including bringing in dependents and scope for future citizenship, as well as some exemptions from some exams and relocation packages. These may motivate overseas doctors to apply for entry level jobs even if they are overqualified. Entry level jobs which our newly qualified young people need.
  • Various extensive and expensive courses are advertised on the internet designed to give participants an advantage when applying for specialist training in the UK. In contrast many UK medical schools do very little to ensure that their graduates have the additional academic super-curricular that, with current levels of competition, are effectively requirements to gain a training place. This year it is predicted that only 50% of the around 4,500 places will go to graduates from UK medical schools, even though it is recognised that for many UK training is simply a passport to well paid jobs in private hospitals in Singapore, Dubai or their home countries. This is poor workforce planning. If we are going to avoid a future shortage of consultants we need to prioritise those likely to build a future in the UK.
Many young doctors will see a couple of years in Australia as a reasonable fall-back. They accept that they will be taking jobs Australians don’t want and will be at the back of the queue when it comes to specialist training, but they will also be gaining experience in a different healthcare environment.

Others, including those with family or caring responsibilities, or those who brought their families over when offered fixed term contracts, simply face unemployment. We should not be recruiting overseas when we have good, qualified, NHS experienced, doctors, nurses and other HCPs in the UK driving Ubers or working in Tesco.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
84
mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 20:06

Feel Ive hit a nerve though 😂. I don't like the Oxford course as very old fashioned. But they are talking about updating it.

Auchencar · 20/02/2025 20:06

Oxford explicitly does not make contextual offers for A100 Medicine. I'll find a link. This matters in terms of credibility and your claims.

Auchencar · 20/02/2025 20:10

https://www.medsci.ox.ac.uk/study/medicine/pre-clinical/faqs/pre-clinical-medicine-does-the-medical-school-use-contextual-admissions

Second line. If you make bold claims you need to be able to substantiate them.

I know enough about Oxford admissions to know that on results day they might be flexible. Only occasionally and only if they really liked the candidate at interview. This is absolutely one off and dependent on the individual offeree. There are no contextual offers made for A100 Medicine. What you said was just plain wrong. Love that you're attempting to double down.

I do recognise that this is a picky point but it does undermine what a poster says about everything if they're so wrong about such a small point but have made large claims on the back of it. Apologies to those who don't see why I'm getting uppity about it.

Auchencar · 20/02/2025 20:13

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 20:06

Feel Ive hit a nerve though 😂. I don't like the Oxford course as very old fashioned. But they are talking about updating it.

Yes, must hurt that their graduates hog so many of the training posts though and only go to Australia if they actually want to, for a year in the sun (real sun, not academic sun).

Auchencar · 20/02/2025 20:16

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 20:05

Oxford offers range from AAA-AstarAstarA. Depends on the applicant.

History etc still AAA. A100 medicine absolutely not. Has been A*AA for years - since around 2013? Can't quite remember the exact year. As the chemistry teacher of a school which claims to send 'lots' to Oxford for Medicine how can you possibly not know that?

AAA to AstarAstarA depending on the fecking subject, not the applicant.

Absolutely astonishing from a sixth form teacher of chemistry.

Auchencar · 20/02/2025 20:18

Ok back to my butternut squash and lentils. And much, much needed wine.

oddandelsewhere · 20/02/2025 20:23

@Auchencar legend!

Auchencar · 20/02/2025 20:27

oddandelsewhere · 20/02/2025 20:23

@Auchencar legend!

Omg thank you :)

Auchencar · 20/02/2025 20:29

And thank you Laithwaites too for delivering the wine I've just had to go to my outside shed to get out to remain sane in a trying world.

OneMorePiece · 20/02/2025 20:52

Clavinova · 20/02/2025 19:52

Needmoresleep
Do you have views on Boris' lifting of the RLMT?

The recommendations that all medical practitioners be added to the shortage occupation list (thereby exempting them from the RLMT) were made before Boris Johnson became PM;

On 29th May 2019 the Migration Advisory Committee published its recommendations that all medical practitioners including GP's should be added to the shortage occupation list (SOL). This means that the recruitment process for non-EEA GPs will be significantly quicker as since 7th October 2019 there is now no need for practices to satisfy the Resident Market Labour Test (RMLT),

https://www.kentlmc.org/tier2visasforpractices
https://www.phstrecruitment.org.uk/recruitment-process/am-i-eligible/uk-eligibility

May 2019

The British Medical Association (BMA) has welcomed the latest proposals from the Migration Advisory Committee’s new review of the shortage occupation list.

The proposals recommend placing all doctors on the list – something the BMA believes will address chronic workforce shortage.

“The BMA is delighted that such a respected body as the Migrations Advisory Committee has listened to the BMA and proposed a bold, but much needed, recommendation to place all doctors on the shortage occupation list.

“This welcome proposal is a victory for the BMA and for the sustained lobbying by the Association to address the chronic workforce shortages which are undermining the delivery of patient care across the NHS."

https://practicebusiness.co.uk/bma-welcomes-proposal-to-add-doctors-to-shortage-occupation-list

From your article

BMA council chair, Dr Chaand Nagpaul

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 20:55

Ah I think we really should say goodbye to strangers. Legends that they are 😂😂

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 20:58

Ah bless. It's a shame outreach hasn't reached you. Nerve has definitely been hit. Nothing to do with contextual. Standard offers are not all offers. Surely you know that ???

OneMorePiece · 20/02/2025 20:59

He was BMA council chair from 2017-2022

Clavinova · 20/02/2025 20:59

OneMorePiece · 20/02/2025 20:52

From your article

BMA council chair, Dr Chaand Nagpaul

Is there not a committee or is the BMA a dictatorship?

OneMorePiece · 20/02/2025 21:00

Look it up

Auchencar · 20/02/2025 21:00

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 20:55

Ah I think we really should say goodbye to strangers. Legends that they are 😂😂

So how about a comprehensible post instead, to explain how you as a chemistry teacher who sends 'lots' of students to Oxford for the A100 course, hasn't got a clue about the entry requirements.

Emojiis won't cut it.

You cannot make the claim if you're so ill informed.

Auchencar · 20/02/2025 21:04

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 20:58

Ah bless. It's a shame outreach hasn't reached you. Nerve has definitely been hit. Nothing to do with contextual. Standard offers are not all offers. Surely you know that ???

Outreach has certainly reached our school. You can't bluff this one. Read the link. Context works differently with Oxford.

You've blown it unless you can give a credible response.

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 21:16

Oh dear. Someone is not happy they don't get AAA offers 😂😂

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 21:17

Assume you were at the WP conference then ? Wasn't it amazing what the Cambs tutors said ? Very impressed.

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 21:19

Pop over to the Medicine thread in Higher education if you want to continue attacking me on this. Should be fun !

Meantime, the topic you don't discuss is why we are here

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
Auchencar · 20/02/2025 21:20

My own DS had no need of such a low offer since he got 6A* At A level (did History as an add on because he enjoyed it).

My irritation is exclusively with the fact that Oxford Medicine is A*AA not AAA and no school in the UK has a secret deal.

So its the bullshit which makes me not happy.

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 21:21

And there we go. 6 A stars ! Wow. We are all soooooo impressed 😂😂

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 21:22

Secret deals 😂😂😂. Nah, standard offers are not all offers. You should know that with all your experience. So funny

Clavinova · 20/02/2025 21:22

OneMorePiece · 20/02/2025 21:00

Look it up

I've found these instead:

(2019) Welcoming the publication of the report Professor Andrew Goddard, President of the Royal College of Physicians said:

We are delighted that the MAC have taken on our recommendations for medical practitioners to be added to the shortage occupation list. This is a welcome step forward which will help in the short term. Only 55% of advertised consultant posts were filled last year due to shortages of doctors, so this recommendation could make a big difference.

(2017)
GPs’ leaders are urging ministers to add family doctors to the UK’s list of shortage occupations, to make it easier for overseas doctors to help plug the widening gaps in the GP workforce.

Dr Helen Stokes-Lampard, the college’s chair, wants GPs trained outside the European Union to be given extra help so they can help to tackle desperate shortages that force patients to wait for a consultation.

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 21:24

Things are changing. Wes, BMA and DHSC all agree things need to change. Seems only a handful of people on here now disagree.