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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs

795 replies

Needmoresleep · 16/02/2025 15:22

Unbelievable but true.

Doctors, nurses and other health care professionals now have to compete for jobs and training with applicants from across the world. No priority is given to those already in the country.

Even ordinary entry level jobs can attract hundreds of applicants within a few hours. Newly qualified doctors and nurses need that first job to get the experience that overseas applicants will be able to offer.

In 2021 immigration law was changed and something called the Resident Market Labour Test was dropped for health and care workers. It means that the UK may be the only country not to prioritise those already in the country.

The previous thread:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5267503-aibu-to-be-furious-that-there-are-no-jobs-for-young-doctors?page=1
included a number of stories. An entire graduating class of nurses unable to find that first job whilst administrators from the local hospital were taking recruitment trips to Asia. An experienced GP wanting to return from a career break only to discovering that she, and others in a similar position, could not find work, a consultant surprised at how well qualified locums seeking zero hours, short notice, cover work are. The number of overseas doctors applying for the limited number of specialist training positions in the UK doubled between 2023 and 2025.

A group of us, who have been on the higher education board since our DC were first applying to medical school, recently discovered that none of our DC, coming to the end of their foundation years (F1& F2) expect to get anything other than the odd shift with NHS bank. Most see moving to Australia as the only way to stay in medicine. They say the same applies to their peers.

Our young doctors have spent seven or eight years getting to where they are, and have £100,000 of student loans to repay. The taxpayer has spent £250,000 on each of them.

Unfortunately the NHS does not appear to keep data on the number of applicants per vacancy, nor on vacancies that, because of the numbers applying, close within a few hours. It also does not appear to question why such a small proportion of F2s are progressing within the NHS. Instead there seems to be an assumption that this wastage is somehow natural, and that the solution is to re-double international recruitment efforts, to increase medical school places, and to replace traditional junior doctor roles with less skilled Physician Associates. Measures that will only increase the problem.

If things are not changed, even more of our skilled and dedicated young people will find themselves without jobs. We would welcome experiences, information and ideas.

Please also spread the word, write to your MP, tell people in a position to influence who may not be aware. We have a shortage of doctors, nurses, midwives, and paramedics. Our first priority is to ensure that those already in the country are able to get jobs.

If young Doctors were asked, and the same will apply to other Health Care Professionals, they would argue that:

  • Busy F2s work long shifts including nights which makes extensive job search difficult
  • Posts often attract hundreds of applicants, and close within a few hours. This level of competition is in itself off-putting
  • Overseas applicants are often supported by agencies who can set alerts for vacancies and ensure that multiple applications are submitted. No such support is offered to UK applicants,
  • These agencies will help with the writing of applications so they score well against NHS selection criteria. Again no such careers support is offered to UK applicants.
  • The Government/NHS offer incentives for overseas doctors including bringing in dependents and scope for future citizenship, as well as some exemptions from some exams and relocation packages. These may motivate overseas doctors to apply for entry level jobs even if they are overqualified. Entry level jobs which our newly qualified young people need.
  • Various extensive and expensive courses are advertised on the internet designed to give participants an advantage when applying for specialist training in the UK. In contrast many UK medical schools do very little to ensure that their graduates have the additional academic super-curricular that, with current levels of competition, are effectively requirements to gain a training place. This year it is predicted that only 50% of the around 4,500 places will go to graduates from UK medical schools, even though it is recognised that for many UK training is simply a passport to well paid jobs in private hospitals in Singapore, Dubai or their home countries. This is poor workforce planning. If we are going to avoid a future shortage of consultants we need to prioritise those likely to build a future in the UK.
Many young doctors will see a couple of years in Australia as a reasonable fall-back. They accept that they will be taking jobs Australians don’t want and will be at the back of the queue when it comes to specialist training, but they will also be gaining experience in a different healthcare environment.

Others, including those with family or caring responsibilities, or those who brought their families over when offered fixed term contracts, simply face unemployment. We should not be recruiting overseas when we have good, qualified, NHS experienced, doctors, nurses and other HCPs in the UK driving Ubers or working in Tesco.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
84
Auchencar · 20/02/2025 19:01

OneMorePiece · 20/02/2025 18:15

That Nuffield Report is from September 2023 before the IMG explosion.

That's very recent in terms of validity for this sort of report.

Auchencar · 20/02/2025 19:06

My impression given recent statements it has also taken others by surprise. Wes Streeting, the BMA etc

Absolutely no surprises. Wes Streeting has been asked multiple times about the situation and has thus far only ever answered by not answering (saying that more med school places have been created). The BMA has not wanted to address the issue - I think that was discussed on an earlier thread. No-one but no-one is surprised.

Marchesman · 20/02/2025 19:14

@JulietteBravissimo and @Auchencar

Higher entrance requirements would help, along with more honesty. Such as Oxford's: "Practising Medicine can be arduous, stressful, frustrating and bureaucratic and is not suited to everyone." However, I can't see a lot of medical schools, that have travelled far in the direction of less science and excessively early patient contact, changing very much.

The other issue, which gets no attention in this context, is consultants' pay and conditions. For all their problems, juniors now don't have as difficult a time as their predecessors, nor are they junior for as long. But it was easy to put up with a lot when you were looking forward to having the sort of professional autonomy and respect that consultants once had. Current juniors don't have that to look forward to.

To get back to it you would have to scrap revalidation (for which Shipman provided a feeble excuse), along with mandatory teaching of any kind, markedly truncate the time wasted on appraisal (including juniors'), confine infection control nurses to barracks, limit HR to their historic medical personnel function, stop fining medical staff for parking in the wrong place, stop charging them for parking, give them back control of their outpatient clinics, stop paying them by the hour, resuscitate medical staff committees, and generally treat them as adults who are not bad at what they do when they are left to their own devices - and then spend the money that you save on expanding services.

None of which will ever happen.

Sorry!

Auchencar · 20/02/2025 19:22

😂(Sorry, since I realise you're serious, but I especially like the confining of infection control nurses to barracks)

Please God let there be some equally plain speakers on the working committee/ all relevant committees everywhere.

Clavinova · 20/02/2025 19:26

Needmoresleep
Why is Australia hiring from here rather than from India?

Australia is clearly recruiting from here and India;

https://www.wagov.pipeline.preproduction.digital.wa.gov.au/government/media-statements/Cook-Labor-Government/Western-Australia-on-show-to-skilled-health-workers-in-India--20240221

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 19:29

Wes today

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
Finallylostit · 20/02/2025 19:33

As things stand now, around 8 per cent of doctors finishing foundation training didn’t receive an offer after applying for a speciality, according to Billy Palmer, the Nuffield Trust’s senior health policy fellow.

Probably about right - does not mean they did not get a job and did not continue training in an unrecognised training job. So around 800 juniors to fill the non training jobs - there are far more than 800 jobs needed to cover the rotas etc - hence the need for overseas doctors
Some simply just not get a training job and be advised on this - normal belll curve distribution

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 19:34

However, I can't see a lot of medical schools, that have travelled far in the direction of less science and excessively early patient contact, changing very much

YouTube do realise GMC accredite every course ? It's not up to the Unis what they teach - they all cover the same stuff. But this won't fit the agenda of those who believe that there are only 5 Unis worth going too.

Plymouth requires AstarAA while Oxford only needs AAA so Plymouth is much better I assume as has higher entry requirements ?

Finallylostit · 20/02/2025 19:34

And as can be seen from the MRCP fiasco, exams are not important to be a good doctor. 19.5% got the wrong result but they've gone in to be great doctors.

This is a fiasco but it happened at the end of 2023 - it does not correlate that all of them have gone to be great doctors and there is no evidence to suggest that. A lot more years needed of training to give that opinon

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 19:35

@Finallylostit again, for the hard of hearing, things have changed this year. Just look

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 19:36

Define a good doctor please,

Finallylostit · 20/02/2025 19:38

No mumsneedwine - things might change but currently the evidence is not out

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 19:40

@Finallylostit this is the data supplied by NHSE. After 1 year post F2 in 2022 60% of people were not in training

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 19:40

@Finallylostit I'm afraid it is.

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
Auchencar · 20/02/2025 19:43

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 19:34

However, I can't see a lot of medical schools, that have travelled far in the direction of less science and excessively early patient contact, changing very much

YouTube do realise GMC accredite every course ? It's not up to the Unis what they teach - they all cover the same stuff. But this won't fit the agenda of those who believe that there are only 5 Unis worth going too.

Plymouth requires AstarAA while Oxford only needs AAA so Plymouth is much better I assume as has higher entry requirements ?

Oxford has required A*AA for years and absolutely even the most dimwit muppet knows that the interviewing process that Oxford uses to great effect means that their offers have always been relatively low. There are a few exceptions for certain highly mathematical subjects but this is the general rule.

I do wish it wasn't necessary to have to correct your statements so often mumsneedwine. I'm referring to the statements you present as fact, which they so often are not. Opinion is not what I'm talking about, before you jump on that as get out of jail free card.

Auchencar · 20/02/2025 19:44

*dimwit muppet is even more dumb than Tim-Nice-But-Dim.

Auchencar · 20/02/2025 19:52

I'm afraid that I'm now struggling to believe that you actually have been sending 'lots' of your Chemistry students to Oxford for years if you don't even know the entry requirement, which is not in the least new. It's not a typo since you've made a point about relative standards based on some extremely old info. If you want to be credible, get your facts straight because as it is you are your own worst enemy on the credibility front. Even our History teachers at school know that Oxford Medicine requires A*AA (a fair number of students take a humanities subject for enjoyment/ breadth).

Clavinova · 20/02/2025 19:52

Needmoresleep
Do you have views on Boris' lifting of the RLMT?

The recommendations that all medical practitioners be added to the shortage occupation list (thereby exempting them from the RLMT) were made before Boris Johnson became PM;

On 29th May 2019 the Migration Advisory Committee published its recommendations that all medical practitioners including GP's should be added to the shortage occupation list (SOL). This means that the recruitment process for non-EEA GPs will be significantly quicker as since 7th October 2019 there is now no need for practices to satisfy the Resident Market Labour Test (RMLT),

https://www.kentlmc.org/tier2visasforpractices
https://www.phstrecruitment.org.uk/recruitment-process/am-i-eligible/uk-eligibility

May 2019

The British Medical Association (BMA) has welcomed the latest proposals from the Migration Advisory Committee’s new review of the shortage occupation list.

The proposals recommend placing all doctors on the list – something the BMA believes will address chronic workforce shortage.

“The BMA is delighted that such a respected body as the Migrations Advisory Committee has listened to the BMA and proposed a bold, but much needed, recommendation to place all doctors on the shortage occupation list.

“This welcome proposal is a victory for the BMA and for the sustained lobbying by the Association to address the chronic workforce shortages which are undermining the delivery of patient care across the NHS."

https://practicebusiness.co.uk/bma-welcomes-proposal-to-add-doctors-to-shortage-occupation-list

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 19:55

@Auchencar oh bless you. Now calling me a liar 😂.

Oxford requires AstarAA while AAA. Cambs require A*AA. I can provide the full spreadsheet for every Uni if you like - I give it out for free on the medicine applicant threads every year

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 19:56

Sorry ! Typing while cooking. Plymouth AstarAA, Oxford AAA, B'ham AA.

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 19:58

But maybe they need higher grades for less good candidate. Mine all got AAA this year.

Auchencar · 20/02/2025 20:00

We're all cooking mumsneedwine.

I'm saying that you're incorrect that Oxford asks for AAA as standard. It asks for A*AA and has done so for years.

On that basis alone one has to wonder how you can be sending students to Oxford if you aren't up to speed with their entry requirements.

Auchencar · 20/02/2025 20:02

I'm sorry, come again? Cambridge sometimes takes that approach : higher offers for offerees it's uncertain about. Oxford does not (it may accept them on results day if they fall short - different point).

It was no typo - you took time out to make a point about Plymouth v Oxford on the basis of duff info. That can't by definition be a typo.

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 20:04

Standard offers do not account for all offers. Surely you know that with all your experience ?

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 20:05

Oxford offers range from AAA-AstarAstarA. Depends on the applicant.