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AIBU?

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AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs

795 replies

Needmoresleep · 16/02/2025 15:22

Unbelievable but true.

Doctors, nurses and other health care professionals now have to compete for jobs and training with applicants from across the world. No priority is given to those already in the country.

Even ordinary entry level jobs can attract hundreds of applicants within a few hours. Newly qualified doctors and nurses need that first job to get the experience that overseas applicants will be able to offer.

In 2021 immigration law was changed and something called the Resident Market Labour Test was dropped for health and care workers. It means that the UK may be the only country not to prioritise those already in the country.

The previous thread:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5267503-aibu-to-be-furious-that-there-are-no-jobs-for-young-doctors?page=1
included a number of stories. An entire graduating class of nurses unable to find that first job whilst administrators from the local hospital were taking recruitment trips to Asia. An experienced GP wanting to return from a career break only to discovering that she, and others in a similar position, could not find work, a consultant surprised at how well qualified locums seeking zero hours, short notice, cover work are. The number of overseas doctors applying for the limited number of specialist training positions in the UK doubled between 2023 and 2025.

A group of us, who have been on the higher education board since our DC were first applying to medical school, recently discovered that none of our DC, coming to the end of their foundation years (F1& F2) expect to get anything other than the odd shift with NHS bank. Most see moving to Australia as the only way to stay in medicine. They say the same applies to their peers.

Our young doctors have spent seven or eight years getting to where they are, and have £100,000 of student loans to repay. The taxpayer has spent £250,000 on each of them.

Unfortunately the NHS does not appear to keep data on the number of applicants per vacancy, nor on vacancies that, because of the numbers applying, close within a few hours. It also does not appear to question why such a small proportion of F2s are progressing within the NHS. Instead there seems to be an assumption that this wastage is somehow natural, and that the solution is to re-double international recruitment efforts, to increase medical school places, and to replace traditional junior doctor roles with less skilled Physician Associates. Measures that will only increase the problem.

If things are not changed, even more of our skilled and dedicated young people will find themselves without jobs. We would welcome experiences, information and ideas.

Please also spread the word, write to your MP, tell people in a position to influence who may not be aware. We have a shortage of doctors, nurses, midwives, and paramedics. Our first priority is to ensure that those already in the country are able to get jobs.

If young Doctors were asked, and the same will apply to other Health Care Professionals, they would argue that:

  • Busy F2s work long shifts including nights which makes extensive job search difficult
  • Posts often attract hundreds of applicants, and close within a few hours. This level of competition is in itself off-putting
  • Overseas applicants are often supported by agencies who can set alerts for vacancies and ensure that multiple applications are submitted. No such support is offered to UK applicants,
  • These agencies will help with the writing of applications so they score well against NHS selection criteria. Again no such careers support is offered to UK applicants.
  • The Government/NHS offer incentives for overseas doctors including bringing in dependents and scope for future citizenship, as well as some exemptions from some exams and relocation packages. These may motivate overseas doctors to apply for entry level jobs even if they are overqualified. Entry level jobs which our newly qualified young people need.
  • Various extensive and expensive courses are advertised on the internet designed to give participants an advantage when applying for specialist training in the UK. In contrast many UK medical schools do very little to ensure that their graduates have the additional academic super-curricular that, with current levels of competition, are effectively requirements to gain a training place. This year it is predicted that only 50% of the around 4,500 places will go to graduates from UK medical schools, even though it is recognised that for many UK training is simply a passport to well paid jobs in private hospitals in Singapore, Dubai or their home countries. This is poor workforce planning. If we are going to avoid a future shortage of consultants we need to prioritise those likely to build a future in the UK.
Many young doctors will see a couple of years in Australia as a reasonable fall-back. They accept that they will be taking jobs Australians don’t want and will be at the back of the queue when it comes to specialist training, but they will also be gaining experience in a different healthcare environment.

Others, including those with family or caring responsibilities, or those who brought their families over when offered fixed term contracts, simply face unemployment. We should not be recruiting overseas when we have good, qualified, NHS experienced, doctors, nurses and other HCPs in the UK driving Ubers or working in Tesco.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Needmoresleep · 20/02/2025 11:34

banananas1999 · 20/02/2025 10:58

My GP surgery has recruited 2 doctors from abroad- I am a foreigner myself and I have never had problems understanding different british accents but I find it so hard to understand what these foreign doctors are saying,its worse on the phone and I feel awkward asking them to repeat themselves or say i cant understand.

My mum saw a lovely locum geriatric psychiatrist from Egypt. (She had Alzheimers.) He addressed the issue from the outset. That he had an accent and that she should tell him if she did not understand. He was so good and treated her with such dignity.

Unlike the IMG that DD worked with who they really worried about. (If you are an F1 you really want the person with you on the night shift to be up and running.) Things would have been easier if they had let colleagues know that they were struggling to understand heavily accented patients. There was no problem communicating with colleagues speaking Received Pronunciation. It took a couple of months and then everything was fine, but they would have had more help had others had realised what the problem was.

Bringing in health care professionals from overseas is not a simple off-the-shelf purchase. Again "best" involves weighing different factors, not just exam results, or a paper CV. At the moment it is perfectly possible that there is a well qualified and experienced GP living down the road trying to return after a career break, but who failed to produce an application that scored as well as the applications that overseas agencies helped their applicants to submit. This is in part the problem that our newly qualified doctors face. There is no careers support within the UK. Lots outside.

OP posts:
Marchesman · 20/02/2025 11:41

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 09:49

Well I disagree, and that is allowed. I don't think people who pass exams with higher marks make better doctors. I think they are just good at exams Johnathan Van Tam got BBB at A level and he seems to be pretty good at his job.

The MRSA is the gateway to training for many specialities. It used to be that if you got in top 50% you'd get an interview. Now it's you 8% for some. That can be a difference if 10 marks.

And as can be seen from the MRCP fiasco, exams are not important to be a good doctor. 19.5% got the wrong result but they've gone in to be great doctors.

Not a good example - Van Tam never made it past registrar in hospital medicine.

Needmoresleep · 20/02/2025 11:47

Marchesman · 20/02/2025 11:41

Not a good example - Van Tam never made it past registrar in hospital medicine.

I don't really understand the point of this argument. However 3 Bs in old currency is worth more than 3 Bs today. People from my school went to medical school with less.

Things are very different today. In those days it was seen as an advantage top have a doctor parent as it was felt that you "understood" the demands of the profession. And there did not seem to be the same emphasis on academic achievement except perhaps for some in London teaching hospitals. Golf handicap might as good a qualification elsewhere.

OP posts:
Auchencar · 20/02/2025 11:52

Golf is a derail.

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 11:52

Van Tam was very very good at passing exams though. Thought that was what made the better doctor, not experience in the ward ? Hence why he became a Prof and Deputy Chief Mecucal Officer.

And BBB today will still get you into medical school if you qualify for Partners. Newcastle think it makes you good enough and they seem pretty successful at producing good doctors.

Auchencar · 20/02/2025 12:00

No. This is another misrepresentation. Newcastle Uni believes that a student from a recognised category of educational disadvantage achieving BBB is as suited for a place as those not having suffered any disadvantage who achieve AAA.

JulietteBravissimo · 20/02/2025 12:01

Adam Kay writes that he "went to the kind of school that's essentially a sausage factory designed to churn out medics, lawyers and cabinet members; and my dad was a doctor" He also writes "Imperial College in London were satisfied that my distinctions in grade eight piano and saxophone, along-side some half-arsed theatre reviews for the school magazine, qualified me perfectly for life on the wards." This was 1998. And isn't Imperial one of the starrier med schools? Was selection in the good old days really so robust?

Auchencar · 20/02/2025 12:09

Selection was notoriously flaky in the good old days.

A neighbour's son was given a place at Imperial after getting a D first time round at A levels (Eton) because he was a good rower. This would have been just a little later than Adam Kay. Not surprisingly he never made it anywhere in the medical profession. Very pleasant family, this son was just not that bright.

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 12:14

@Auchencar I send several students to Newcastle every year under Partners - it's an amazing big scheme.

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 12:16

Wouldn't have got in if you went to a comp school !! That privilege was obscene.

So are we saying older doctors may not be very good because they weren't good at exams ? Or are they good because they have worked on wards and shown their excellence and managed to scrape through exams ?

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 12:20

@Auchencar sorry, lost last bit. Partners is not just about being poor. Many young carers come from average backgrounds

Auchencar · 20/02/2025 12:21

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 12:20

@Auchencar sorry, lost last bit. Partners is not just about being poor. Many young carers come from average backgrounds

The wording I used was 'recognised category of educational disadvantage'.

That may stem from economic disadvantage or it may not.

Needmoresleep · 20/02/2025 12:22

I spend a lot of time outside London. There the older consultants live in lovely large houses in the better part of town valued well into the seven figures, and are well respected members of the more snobby local golf club. A friend in their early 40s is also a consultant. Niceish semi in an OK area. Big work load with referrals growing noticeably each year. Not enough office space so they have to hot desk. Unfilled posts. A loss of department camaraderie (he has a training responsibility so does his best for F1s/F2s). He looks at the big houses and says he joined the NHS at the wrong time. He also suggests it was something he was funnelled into at school because he was good at science, when he should have looked at other options. Indeed until he got his consultant post he was actively thinking of leaving.

I suspect a lot of the pressure on the BMA to focus on pay comes from the hard working middle ranks looking at the big houses, the private school fees and the golf club subscriptions and realising they won’t achieve the same. Our DC would prefer a focus on proper career paths…and jobs.

OP posts:
Auchencar · 20/02/2025 12:24

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 12:16

Wouldn't have got in if you went to a comp school !! That privilege was obscene.

So are we saying older doctors may not be very good because they weren't good at exams ? Or are they good because they have worked on wards and shown their excellence and managed to scrape through exams ?

Again, this isn't logical. It could be that some dimwits got through to eg Imperial but of course incredibly bright applicants will have got through too.

The latter are overwhelmingly likely to be the ones who got to the top of the profession. The dimwits most likely did not.

Auchencar · 20/02/2025 12:27

Well with your permission to derail OP, the golf club which is next door to my house costs £160pa for an adult member and the excellent one along the road (in the top 100 of UK courses) is £260pa this year 2025-2026.

Another reason to think of deaneries outside London, if golf is your thing.

Needmoresleep · 20/02/2025 12:34

Auchencar · 20/02/2025 12:24

Again, this isn't logical. It could be that some dimwits got through to eg Imperial but of course incredibly bright applicants will have got through too.

The latter are overwhelmingly likely to be the ones who got to the top of the profession. The dimwits most likely did not.

One argument I have heard from senior doctors is that in the past a lot was based on appraisal. Doing well in your rotations got you to the next step. Now it is more tick box. You tick off different experiences. Progression is much more about passing exams, research and winning prizes. Less scope for them to halt the progress of someone who isn’t good at the practical stuff. (Second hand so I am happy to be corrected.)

That is part of the problem. There are good foundation doctors working hard, putting patients first and getting great appraisals. They know that career wise they need to be a lot more ruthless and prioritise themselves and jumping the ever higher hurdles needed to get a training place. But hey. They went into medicine to care for patients. The training place will go to someone else, possibly with no NHS experience and possibly prepped by a UK Government subsidised overseas training institution. Who possibly sees the NHS as a stepping stone to a better paid post elsewhere.

OP posts:
mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 12:44

Dimwits ?

oddandelsewhere · 20/02/2025 12:45

Well I'm not going to lie, the people who see the NHS as a stepping stone to a better paid post elsewhere are thinking exactly the same as your DC.

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 12:47

??? My DC ? No, she'd like to stay in the UK working as a doctor.

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 12:48

Please tell me you don't call anyone a dimwit in real life ? SEN is a real thing you know. Made me angry. Off to work with some students who I'm keeping well away from that language 🤬🤬🤬

Auchencar · 20/02/2025 12:49

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 12:44

Dimwits ?

Yes dimwits. It wasn't that many decades ago that nepotism helped open the doors in various professions. But dimwits tended not to get much beyond the downstairs hall.

Auchencar · 20/02/2025 12:51

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 12:48

Please tell me you don't call anyone a dimwit in real life ? SEN is a real thing you know. Made me angry. Off to work with some students who I'm keeping well away from that language 🤬🤬🤬

'Dimwit' is (of course) not used to refer to anyone with SEN. It's used to refer to a Tim-Nice-But-Dim.

Please complain to Harry Enfield if you feel outrage.

oddandelsewhere · 20/02/2025 12:53

I'm sorry @Needmoresleep , I thought she was one of the ones off to Australia.

Auchencar · 20/02/2025 12:55

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/shortcuts/2015/jul/27/enduring-social-shorthand-harry-enfield-characters

This is for you mumsneedwine. The first paragraph is sufficient to explain.

Auchencar · 20/02/2025 12:58

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