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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs

795 replies

Needmoresleep · 16/02/2025 15:22

Unbelievable but true.

Doctors, nurses and other health care professionals now have to compete for jobs and training with applicants from across the world. No priority is given to those already in the country.

Even ordinary entry level jobs can attract hundreds of applicants within a few hours. Newly qualified doctors and nurses need that first job to get the experience that overseas applicants will be able to offer.

In 2021 immigration law was changed and something called the Resident Market Labour Test was dropped for health and care workers. It means that the UK may be the only country not to prioritise those already in the country.

The previous thread:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5267503-aibu-to-be-furious-that-there-are-no-jobs-for-young-doctors?page=1
included a number of stories. An entire graduating class of nurses unable to find that first job whilst administrators from the local hospital were taking recruitment trips to Asia. An experienced GP wanting to return from a career break only to discovering that she, and others in a similar position, could not find work, a consultant surprised at how well qualified locums seeking zero hours, short notice, cover work are. The number of overseas doctors applying for the limited number of specialist training positions in the UK doubled between 2023 and 2025.

A group of us, who have been on the higher education board since our DC were first applying to medical school, recently discovered that none of our DC, coming to the end of their foundation years (F1& F2) expect to get anything other than the odd shift with NHS bank. Most see moving to Australia as the only way to stay in medicine. They say the same applies to their peers.

Our young doctors have spent seven or eight years getting to where they are, and have £100,000 of student loans to repay. The taxpayer has spent £250,000 on each of them.

Unfortunately the NHS does not appear to keep data on the number of applicants per vacancy, nor on vacancies that, because of the numbers applying, close within a few hours. It also does not appear to question why such a small proportion of F2s are progressing within the NHS. Instead there seems to be an assumption that this wastage is somehow natural, and that the solution is to re-double international recruitment efforts, to increase medical school places, and to replace traditional junior doctor roles with less skilled Physician Associates. Measures that will only increase the problem.

If things are not changed, even more of our skilled and dedicated young people will find themselves without jobs. We would welcome experiences, information and ideas.

Please also spread the word, write to your MP, tell people in a position to influence who may not be aware. We have a shortage of doctors, nurses, midwives, and paramedics. Our first priority is to ensure that those already in the country are able to get jobs.

If young Doctors were asked, and the same will apply to other Health Care Professionals, they would argue that:

  • Busy F2s work long shifts including nights which makes extensive job search difficult
  • Posts often attract hundreds of applicants, and close within a few hours. This level of competition is in itself off-putting
  • Overseas applicants are often supported by agencies who can set alerts for vacancies and ensure that multiple applications are submitted. No such support is offered to UK applicants,
  • These agencies will help with the writing of applications so they score well against NHS selection criteria. Again no such careers support is offered to UK applicants.
  • The Government/NHS offer incentives for overseas doctors including bringing in dependents and scope for future citizenship, as well as some exemptions from some exams and relocation packages. These may motivate overseas doctors to apply for entry level jobs even if they are overqualified. Entry level jobs which our newly qualified young people need.
  • Various extensive and expensive courses are advertised on the internet designed to give participants an advantage when applying for specialist training in the UK. In contrast many UK medical schools do very little to ensure that their graduates have the additional academic super-curricular that, with current levels of competition, are effectively requirements to gain a training place. This year it is predicted that only 50% of the around 4,500 places will go to graduates from UK medical schools, even though it is recognised that for many UK training is simply a passport to well paid jobs in private hospitals in Singapore, Dubai or their home countries. This is poor workforce planning. If we are going to avoid a future shortage of consultants we need to prioritise those likely to build a future in the UK.
Many young doctors will see a couple of years in Australia as a reasonable fall-back. They accept that they will be taking jobs Australians don’t want and will be at the back of the queue when it comes to specialist training, but they will also be gaining experience in a different healthcare environment.

Others, including those with family or caring responsibilities, or those who brought their families over when offered fixed term contracts, simply face unemployment. We should not be recruiting overseas when we have good, qualified, NHS experienced, doctors, nurses and other HCPs in the UK driving Ubers or working in Tesco.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
84
Auchencar · 20/02/2025 10:11

Needmoresleep I think it's fairly self evident that we have a good dollop of informed knowledge but nowhere can I see any claimed 'expertise'. Could you point to the relevant post or posts?

Auchencar · 20/02/2025 10:13

Maybe I could point out that, as with the same person being capable of being highly academic and highly personable, so too a mummy can also function in a role beyond that of being just a mummy.

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 10:18

And again. Losing the argument so become personal 😂. 'Mummy' ? Am I an Egyptian queen too.

Actually, I'm pretty proud of being a mummy, so surprised you think it's an insult. Although they've not called me mummy for a few years, what with being grown ups who've had paid work since they were 13.

Again. Derailing the point. Which is about lack of jobs for medics.
Here you go again. Although I know some people don't like cold, hard evidence

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
Needmoresleep · 20/02/2025 10:19

This is the internet. I and others reading do not know your background. But given the confidence of your assertions, I assume you are not a Physicians Associate.

Ditto over most of this thread, the posters you agree with have been quite scathing about “mummies”. You have not disagreed. Nor have you commented substantially about the bottleneck facing the current F2s. What this thread is about. It is as if you are now some way up the ladder, and have little empathy for those below.

We have heard you views on our DC. It would be interesting to hear your informed views on the RMLT. And on the effective off-shoring of medical education.

OP posts:
mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 10:21

And exams being sooooo important ? Read the fall out of this on social media. It's heartbreaking (well to me, some of you probably think they should be fired now as really not up to standard if can't be in top 15%)

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 10:22

@Needmoresleep awesome post. I thought the same

And being a mum is a pretty awesome job. Although most of us have other ones too (because we have bills to pay).

Auchencar · 20/02/2025 10:24

Usefull to know, give your and Auchincar’s claimed expertise,what your background is. It would be ironic if it turned out that you were both “mummies”

A firm no from me, after the weirdness earlier in this thread about a conveniently placed Cambridge graduate who hasn't secured training 'knowing [my] DC'.

I also don't feel any need to list my background. You don't encourage this on your threads where consultants have been slagged off as either not really consultants or too lacking in empathy to be decent consultants, mummies other than the select few who are toeing the line are met with contempt ("mummies"), lawyers are not as important to society as doctors etc. You can read my posts and dismiss the evident understanding in them or not. I really couldn't care less either way.

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 10:28

@Auchencar you missed the update. I said meant knew people like your DC, those who look down on others because they don't see them as good as themselves. Your DC might not be like that at all, but you are coming across like that I'm afraid.

My ex student was treated with contempt by many at Cambs because he was not 'like them'. Hideous snobbery and racism. But not everyone thankfully. Lots of people are empathetic and non judgemental.

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 10:29

And lawyers are not as important as doctors 😂😂. I have managed 59 years of life and used a lawyer once, to buy a house.

Needmoresleep · 20/02/2025 10:29

Still interested to hear your informed views on the RMLT. And on the effective off-shoring of medical education.

I know it is Mumsnet but can’t we stick to the topic.

OP posts:
mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 10:30

Here's the topic

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 10:31

Here's the important people agreeing the topic is important and a huge issue

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
Auchencar · 20/02/2025 10:33

I'm sorry mumsneedwine the so-called update which I saw later lacked all credibilty. You know what you originally wrote and then realised it was incredibly weird so you made a late and limp attempt to get yourself out of a scrape.

I found it disturbing which in the circumstances seems justified.

Let's move on.

Auchencar · 20/02/2025 10:35

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 10:29

And lawyers are not as important as doctors 😂😂. I have managed 59 years of life and used a lawyer once, to buy a house.

That's like me saying I've never been to hospital. But this isn't all about you. Or me. It's about society. Lawyers are every bit as important, of course they are.

mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 10:38

Sorry but 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Lawyers are not vital to life. Did you have your many children all at home then ? Have you never visited a GP ?

Needmoresleep · 20/02/2025 10:38

No need for repeated posting of the same information.

It is agreed that that current F2s face an uncertain future. There appear to be differences in views on whether that is a good thing or not.

We have some prolific posters who seem confident in their knowledge of NHS workforce planning. I am interested both in the experience that this confidence is based on, and their informed views on the RMLT. And on the effective off-shoring of medical education

OP posts:
mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 10:41

@Needmoresleep I post the information so it's top of the thread. Many new people won't bother to read past all the rubbish about mummies and v important lawyers. But they can see the stats staring them in the face.

So I'll keep posting the evidence. It's a thread for all and we can all say and go what we think is right 😁. Sorry, still enjoying the lawyers thing though.

Auchencar · 20/02/2025 10:44

We have heard you views on our DC. It would be interesting to hear your informed views on the RMLT. And on the effective off-shoring of medical education

I haven't made any comments about your DC. Nor about my own, other than in response to the wacky Cambridge grad 'knowing' him thing and then having to explain why he didn't, then getting a grilling about how my DC can possibly know people from Oxbridge, then more comments about how come he knows all their marks (I mean, he won't know marks, but he will know whose working as a registrar in the friendship group or in the hospitals he's in, so a relatively reasonable assumption is that they got through the barrier....).

I just don't wish to engage with this RLMT thing, or the idea that medical education is being 'off-shored'. I also think you wouldn't actually have any real interest in my views. So again, no.

Auchencar · 20/02/2025 10:47

mumsneedwine I don't think you'd like to live in a society with no lawyers but I won't get into how just as key they are to society as doctors since that is actually a genuine derail, although I suspect you want me to fall into the trap.

oddandelsewhere · 20/02/2025 10:49

OK my background is :

Highly educated

Well informed

Closely associated with members of the medical profession (ambitious and successful)

A mother of three, none of whom would have considered being doctors.

I know nothing about the RLMT so won't opine on it, except to say that it seems a pity to exclude people who might be better qualified than the local skilled clinicians.

banananas1999 · 20/02/2025 10:58

My GP surgery has recruited 2 doctors from abroad- I am a foreigner myself and I have never had problems understanding different british accents but I find it so hard to understand what these foreign doctors are saying,its worse on the phone and I feel awkward asking them to repeat themselves or say i cant understand.

Auchencar · 20/02/2025 11:00

And again. Losing the argument so become personal 😂. 'Mummy' ? Am I an Egyptian queen too

Oh dear. This was quoting Needmoresleep who had just refererred, seemingly disparagingly, to "mummies". Can we assume that you think OP is 'losing the argument' then? Whatever this argument is (no idea myself so I'll defer to you). I've never used the that language myself, nor would I.

Needmoresleep referred to "mummies" at 10.08; I responded using her terminology at 10.13

Needmoresleep · 20/02/2025 11:18

Thanks.

The RLMT thing is the Resident Labour Market Test, effectively the subject of the thread. Hence why I was interested in views.

There is not a right answer. Dropping the RMLT means we no longer give priority to those already in the country, which means newly qualified young people working in the health sector are struggling to find entry level jobs as they face strong competition from applicants overseas, some of whom will have the experience that our young people need. Under normal recruitment procedures the job is given to the best applicant.

There is also no right answer to discussions about immigration. However there is a cost to the tax payer of having families relocate to the UK (housing shortage and more), of having young people unemployed, the cost of whatever subsidies the UK Government is providing to overseas recruitment and training centres, and obviously the very large cost of training that has been invested in the soon to be unemployed Brit.

There are also questions about longer term implications for the NHS. Will the overseas recruit stay or will they take their experience and newly gained skills and move elsewhere. (Reddit/Doctors is interesting. It is clear from IMG discussions that though the UK is the easiest country to access, it is not the preferred one.)

And obviously does the newly qualified nurse or doctor, given the chance to get the experience they need, have the potential to become a highly regarded professional. Perhaps willing to spend their career in a less desirable speciality or region, earning, paying tax and replaying their student loans.

The "best" short term appointment may not be the "best" long term appointment.

There was early quibbling about whether we were the "only" country not to give residents preferential access to their labour markets. It will be fair to say we are one of the very few.

There is also some concern about level playing fields, given that it looks as if exemptions may mean that qualification requirements may be slightly lower for some overseas applicants, and questions about whether claimed qualifications and achievements are properly verified. Here I hope HR departments are doing their due diligence.

OP posts:
Needmoresleep · 20/02/2025 11:19

oddandelsewhere · 20/02/2025 10:49

OK my background is :

Highly educated

Well informed

Closely associated with members of the medical profession (ambitious and successful)

A mother of three, none of whom would have considered being doctors.

I know nothing about the RLMT so won't opine on it, except to say that it seems a pity to exclude people who might be better qualified than the local skilled clinicians.

I was replying to oddandelsewhere

OP posts:
mumsneedwine · 20/02/2025 11:22

@oddandelsewhere could you expand on what you mean here ?

I know nothing about the RLMT so won't opine on it, except to say that it seems a pity to exclude people who might be better qualified than the local skilled clinicians.

What is better qualified ? Exams ? Or experience in NHS ?