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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs

795 replies

Needmoresleep · 16/02/2025 15:22

Unbelievable but true.

Doctors, nurses and other health care professionals now have to compete for jobs and training with applicants from across the world. No priority is given to those already in the country.

Even ordinary entry level jobs can attract hundreds of applicants within a few hours. Newly qualified doctors and nurses need that first job to get the experience that overseas applicants will be able to offer.

In 2021 immigration law was changed and something called the Resident Market Labour Test was dropped for health and care workers. It means that the UK may be the only country not to prioritise those already in the country.

The previous thread:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5267503-aibu-to-be-furious-that-there-are-no-jobs-for-young-doctors?page=1
included a number of stories. An entire graduating class of nurses unable to find that first job whilst administrators from the local hospital were taking recruitment trips to Asia. An experienced GP wanting to return from a career break only to discovering that she, and others in a similar position, could not find work, a consultant surprised at how well qualified locums seeking zero hours, short notice, cover work are. The number of overseas doctors applying for the limited number of specialist training positions in the UK doubled between 2023 and 2025.

A group of us, who have been on the higher education board since our DC were first applying to medical school, recently discovered that none of our DC, coming to the end of their foundation years (F1& F2) expect to get anything other than the odd shift with NHS bank. Most see moving to Australia as the only way to stay in medicine. They say the same applies to their peers.

Our young doctors have spent seven or eight years getting to where they are, and have £100,000 of student loans to repay. The taxpayer has spent £250,000 on each of them.

Unfortunately the NHS does not appear to keep data on the number of applicants per vacancy, nor on vacancies that, because of the numbers applying, close within a few hours. It also does not appear to question why such a small proportion of F2s are progressing within the NHS. Instead there seems to be an assumption that this wastage is somehow natural, and that the solution is to re-double international recruitment efforts, to increase medical school places, and to replace traditional junior doctor roles with less skilled Physician Associates. Measures that will only increase the problem.

If things are not changed, even more of our skilled and dedicated young people will find themselves without jobs. We would welcome experiences, information and ideas.

Please also spread the word, write to your MP, tell people in a position to influence who may not be aware. We have a shortage of doctors, nurses, midwives, and paramedics. Our first priority is to ensure that those already in the country are able to get jobs.

If young Doctors were asked, and the same will apply to other Health Care Professionals, they would argue that:

  • Busy F2s work long shifts including nights which makes extensive job search difficult
  • Posts often attract hundreds of applicants, and close within a few hours. This level of competition is in itself off-putting
  • Overseas applicants are often supported by agencies who can set alerts for vacancies and ensure that multiple applications are submitted. No such support is offered to UK applicants,
  • These agencies will help with the writing of applications so they score well against NHS selection criteria. Again no such careers support is offered to UK applicants.
  • The Government/NHS offer incentives for overseas doctors including bringing in dependents and scope for future citizenship, as well as some exemptions from some exams and relocation packages. These may motivate overseas doctors to apply for entry level jobs even if they are overqualified. Entry level jobs which our newly qualified young people need.
  • Various extensive and expensive courses are advertised on the internet designed to give participants an advantage when applying for specialist training in the UK. In contrast many UK medical schools do very little to ensure that their graduates have the additional academic super-curricular that, with current levels of competition, are effectively requirements to gain a training place. This year it is predicted that only 50% of the around 4,500 places will go to graduates from UK medical schools, even though it is recognised that for many UK training is simply a passport to well paid jobs in private hospitals in Singapore, Dubai or their home countries. This is poor workforce planning. If we are going to avoid a future shortage of consultants we need to prioritise those likely to build a future in the UK.
Many young doctors will see a couple of years in Australia as a reasonable fall-back. They accept that they will be taking jobs Australians don’t want and will be at the back of the queue when it comes to specialist training, but they will also be gaining experience in a different healthcare environment.

Others, including those with family or caring responsibilities, or those who brought their families over when offered fixed term contracts, simply face unemployment. We should not be recruiting overseas when we have good, qualified, NHS experienced, doctors, nurses and other HCPs in the UK driving Ubers or working in Tesco.

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mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 19:12

@Marchesman sorry, what ? Our own medical students don't even get priority for foundation spots. Nor ST1/CT1. Nor F3 type jobs ? They get no priority for anything ? Have I kissed your point ?

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 19:13

Missed ! No kissing on MN.

If we only employ UK trained staff there will be no unemployment or bottle necks (consultant places are also enough to take the UK grads I'm told - by a consultant so no idea if right).

Auchencar · 19/02/2025 19:14

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 19:07

@Marchesman we currently train approx 12,000 medical students and there are currently around 12,000 training posts. While other F3 type roles are being cut they are still there. So, if we prioritise our existing staff they can all be employed and excess jobs can be taken by IMGs (exactly like every other country in the world).

God forbid that every UK medical school graduate becomes a registrar then consultant with no meaningful filters.

Looking on the bright side I guess that would lead to a bonanza for clinical negligence lawyers.

But you know, among all the fuck ups on the wards and in the surgeries are patients with lives and families who depend on high quality individuals in charge of their treatment. Generally speaking, a win in court doesn't begin to atone for whatever has happened due to substandard care. Having the same number of training places as medical school graduates with absolute priority for UK nationals would be utter folly.

I don't think any government would be quite that mad though. Fingers crossed.

modelT · 19/02/2025 19:16

Yes some IMGs are trying to campaign to keep the status quo - obvs they would but other IMGs have been vocal in their support UK prioritisation for post F2 training specialities. In 2006 some also protested against the cap & UK prioritisation. You can see some Indian doctors on youtube (very articulately) advising colleagues in India that if they don’t come soon the door is going to be shut so they sense the change in mood.

Auchencar · 19/02/2025 19:18

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 18:20

Won't be in time for this August I think. But next year looking more hopeful - although the current F1s will be scuppered as current F2s who can't get training will be applying and will have higher portfolio points ! Will take a few years to see the benefit. But some good news. Maybe Wes read us all on here 😊

I can't see the word 'most'?

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 19:19

Oh dear. So the DHSC, Wes, RCP and BMA all now agree that we need to give priority to UK staff. Some people think they know better and it's still a bad idea.

I for one am feeling more optimistic for our young hard working doctors. Not all will stay in NHS, many will go LTFT, but if they want to be employed it is now looking more likely they will be. To me this is v good news.

Needmoresleep · 19/02/2025 19:20

Marchesman · 19/02/2025 19:04

I'm not sure what point is being made here. It seems to be the case that about 1000 consultants retire each year, along with a similar number of GPs.

There are 9000 medical graduates p.a. (the MSC wants to increase that to 14,000+). At the same time, the government like others before it, will try to shift activity from secondary to primary care.

The only way this works is if the bottle has a big hole in it.

https://doi.org/10.1177/0141076817738502

Interesting article. But written in 2017 before the RLMT was lifted. Priority could be given to UK/EU applicants for both training and “F3” jobs. Numbers have exploded since and the outlook for F2s wanting to stay in the UK is far grimmer.

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Auchencar · 19/02/2025 19:20

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 19:09

@Auchencar you missed the word 'most' in my post. Maybe only the brightest and best F1s will succeed 😁

My post was responding to this.

Absolutely the best should succeed and the middling graduates should move to another occupation where they can do minimal harm.

Auchencar · 19/02/2025 19:22

mumsneedwine please could you point me to where you used the word 'most'? I'm happy to be corrected but I just can't see it anywhere.

Needmoresleep · 19/02/2025 19:24

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 19:19

Oh dear. So the DHSC, Wes, RCP and BMA all now agree that we need to give priority to UK staff. Some people think they know better and it's still a bad idea.

I for one am feeling more optimistic for our young hard working doctors. Not all will stay in NHS, many will go LTFT, but if they want to be employed it is now looking more likely they will be. To me this is v good news.

For training. Do we know if it will be for the entry level jobs that our new graduate doctors, nurses and midwives need.

If they can’t find work whilst they prepare for exams they are still stuffed. It then makes the disparity between loadings in different F1/F2 rotations inequitable. Even with deaneries, jobs can vary a lot.

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Needmoresleep · 19/02/2025 19:25

Auchencar · 19/02/2025 19:20

My post was responding to this.

Absolutely the best should succeed and the middling graduates should move to another occupation where they can do minimal harm.

To be replaced by PAs or locums from overseas.

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Auchencar · 19/02/2025 19:27

It's not a question of 'knowing better' mumsneedwine. My emphasis on filters and not a job for life after selection at the age of 18 is based on experience of clinical negligence, both on a personal and on a professional level. Beyond that one can simply read the papers to see examples of shockingly substandard care without ever having to dip ones toes into the heartbreaking cases which go through the legal system. Not all medical school graduates are competent. Some should never go anywhere near a patient.

Auchencar · 19/02/2025 19:28

Needmoresleep · 19/02/2025 19:25

To be replaced by PAs or locums from overseas.

Yes indeed if those are more competent.

modelT · 19/02/2025 19:39

BMA are lobbying for general priority for UK graduates. RCP also. Streeting released statements saying he wants to promote “home grown talent” and stop relying on recruitment from abroad. So l don’t think any reversal will be limited to training contracts.

OneMorePiece · 19/02/2025 19:43

modelT · 19/02/2025 19:16

Yes some IMGs are trying to campaign to keep the status quo - obvs they would but other IMGs have been vocal in their support UK prioritisation for post F2 training specialities. In 2006 some also protested against the cap & UK prioritisation. You can see some Indian doctors on youtube (very articulately) advising colleagues in India that if they don’t come soon the door is going to be shut so they sense the change in mood.

This one I mean is the brand new group set up
by an existing IMG. IMG arrived in UK about a year go. Seems very organised in spreading the word and against UK graduates only prioritisation. So I wondered if you knew or had any updates on what effect that group is having?

Needmoresleep · 19/02/2025 19:45

Auchencar · 19/02/2025 19:28

Yes indeed if those are more competent.

How do you test that?

PAs only need a degree in sports science or geography from any University. The one girl we knew who became a PA was perfectly nice but I doubt anyone would claim she was academic. Whilst my experience with GP locums has been underwhelming. Issues. with language, being able to work Practice or Hospital systems and coping with having to survive on a day’s work here and a day’s work there, so no follow up. Other than me needing sign off on a referral I would have more trust in Dr Google.

Per DD has been lucky but she had a lot of confidence in her peers. An IMG struggled at first, but was fine once he was attuned to the local accent. One would have been fine but lacked confidence and eventually withdrew, but the rest were lovely and could be real assets in an NHS service that struggles to recruit. . They were given a lot of responsibility and they got on with it. Just as you would expect for young people who got onto a highly selective degree and who have survived the course.

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oddandelsewhere · 19/02/2025 19:51

@Auchencar thank you for being the voice of reason. All day reading the rubbish on this thread I've been thinking how potentially dangerous the idea that every U.K graduate should get a job regardless of ability is.
Also the level of entitlement is off the scale. Why on earth should the hard pressed taxpayer fund doctors who won't sit/ can't pass rigorous exams? Or find time to even apply for jobs? Or do some research? Words actually fail me.

Needmoresleep · 19/02/2025 19:52

modelT · 19/02/2025 19:39

BMA are lobbying for general priority for UK graduates. RCP also. Streeting released statements saying he wants to promote “home grown talent” and stop relying on recruitment from abroad. So l don’t think any reversal will be limited to training contracts.

Good. Didn’t Keir Starmer say something a few weeks ago about the NHS needing to wean itself off reliance on overseas recruitment.

Rishi, before the election made a fuss about better workforce planning. Did this get carried forward? Is it something that Wes has access to.

Proper planning and understanding of potential pathways to fill a full range of jobs in the NHS. Including acceptance that some jobs and some places are less popular and that different jobs require different skills. (Academic, interpersonal, stamina, resilience etc.)

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modelT · 19/02/2025 19:54

l know the IMG you mean. He’s active on social media. His effect? An apology by BMA for any “upset” caused to current IMGs. Current IMGs will be retained. UK medicine undergraduates from disadvantaged groups TEND to be disproportionately affected by a failure to prioritise UK graduates. Measures have been taken to facilitate access by disadvantaged groups to study medicine. The figures are becoming alarming hence BMA & RCP statement.

Auchencar · 19/02/2025 19:56

Thank you very much oddandelsewhere.

OneMorePiece · 19/02/2025 20:02

modelT · 19/02/2025 19:54

l know the IMG you mean. He’s active on social media. His effect? An apology by BMA for any “upset” caused to current IMGs. Current IMGs will be retained. UK medicine undergraduates from disadvantaged groups TEND to be disproportionately affected by a failure to prioritise UK graduates. Measures have been taken to facilitate access by disadvantaged groups to study medicine. The figures are becoming alarming hence BMA & RCP statement.

Thought it was revealed that he had no plans to stay in medicine but was planning on joining another industry in the UK? I noticed that he was pushing against UK medical graduates prioritisation and that some other IMGs were unhappy about this.

Sad to see him go about it this way.

He was busy actively recruiting for his group only a few days ago. That's why I asked.

OneMorePiece · 19/02/2025 20:07

Am afraid so. A new one that's not happy about UK graduates only prioritisation.

OneMorePiece · 19/02/2025 20:08

OneMorePiece · 19/02/2025 20:07

Am afraid so. A new one that's not happy about UK graduates only prioritisation.

That was in reply to @mumsneedwine

modelT · 19/02/2025 20:13

Aside from the IMG you refer to there has been almost total consensus on the issue, even from current IMGs. Streeting is unlikely to make any agreement before the latest round of talks on the pay dispute though.

Needmoresleep · 19/02/2025 20:18

modelT · 19/02/2025 19:54

l know the IMG you mean. He’s active on social media. His effect? An apology by BMA for any “upset” caused to current IMGs. Current IMGs will be retained. UK medicine undergraduates from disadvantaged groups TEND to be disproportionately affected by a failure to prioritise UK graduates. Measures have been taken to facilitate access by disadvantaged groups to study medicine. The figures are becoming alarming hence BMA & RCP statement.

Off topic, but an observation is that giving places to people from disadvantaged groups is only part of the picture. More support needs to be given whilst there. Especially if the student has come in with a contextual offer and perhaps doesn’t have that much experience of the prevailing middle class culture. It also appeared that some Islamic schools do very little to teach their students about other religions or ways of life, which meant life in a different environment was harder than it might have been. That said DD said some of the local students from the foundation year were very good with strong patient rapport. Though under the current system very much based on further academic achievements, and the loss of what I think were known as House jobs, I wonder what will happen to them.

One measure that might ease the situation quickly might be to allow doctors access to jobs previously ring fenced for PAs.

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