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AIBU?

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AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs

795 replies

Needmoresleep · 16/02/2025 15:22

Unbelievable but true.

Doctors, nurses and other health care professionals now have to compete for jobs and training with applicants from across the world. No priority is given to those already in the country.

Even ordinary entry level jobs can attract hundreds of applicants within a few hours. Newly qualified doctors and nurses need that first job to get the experience that overseas applicants will be able to offer.

In 2021 immigration law was changed and something called the Resident Market Labour Test was dropped for health and care workers. It means that the UK may be the only country not to prioritise those already in the country.

The previous thread:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5267503-aibu-to-be-furious-that-there-are-no-jobs-for-young-doctors?page=1
included a number of stories. An entire graduating class of nurses unable to find that first job whilst administrators from the local hospital were taking recruitment trips to Asia. An experienced GP wanting to return from a career break only to discovering that she, and others in a similar position, could not find work, a consultant surprised at how well qualified locums seeking zero hours, short notice, cover work are. The number of overseas doctors applying for the limited number of specialist training positions in the UK doubled between 2023 and 2025.

A group of us, who have been on the higher education board since our DC were first applying to medical school, recently discovered that none of our DC, coming to the end of their foundation years (F1& F2) expect to get anything other than the odd shift with NHS bank. Most see moving to Australia as the only way to stay in medicine. They say the same applies to their peers.

Our young doctors have spent seven or eight years getting to where they are, and have £100,000 of student loans to repay. The taxpayer has spent £250,000 on each of them.

Unfortunately the NHS does not appear to keep data on the number of applicants per vacancy, nor on vacancies that, because of the numbers applying, close within a few hours. It also does not appear to question why such a small proportion of F2s are progressing within the NHS. Instead there seems to be an assumption that this wastage is somehow natural, and that the solution is to re-double international recruitment efforts, to increase medical school places, and to replace traditional junior doctor roles with less skilled Physician Associates. Measures that will only increase the problem.

If things are not changed, even more of our skilled and dedicated young people will find themselves without jobs. We would welcome experiences, information and ideas.

Please also spread the word, write to your MP, tell people in a position to influence who may not be aware. We have a shortage of doctors, nurses, midwives, and paramedics. Our first priority is to ensure that those already in the country are able to get jobs.

If young Doctors were asked, and the same will apply to other Health Care Professionals, they would argue that:

  • Busy F2s work long shifts including nights which makes extensive job search difficult
  • Posts often attract hundreds of applicants, and close within a few hours. This level of competition is in itself off-putting
  • Overseas applicants are often supported by agencies who can set alerts for vacancies and ensure that multiple applications are submitted. No such support is offered to UK applicants,
  • These agencies will help with the writing of applications so they score well against NHS selection criteria. Again no such careers support is offered to UK applicants.
  • The Government/NHS offer incentives for overseas doctors including bringing in dependents and scope for future citizenship, as well as some exemptions from some exams and relocation packages. These may motivate overseas doctors to apply for entry level jobs even if they are overqualified. Entry level jobs which our newly qualified young people need.
  • Various extensive and expensive courses are advertised on the internet designed to give participants an advantage when applying for specialist training in the UK. In contrast many UK medical schools do very little to ensure that their graduates have the additional academic super-curricular that, with current levels of competition, are effectively requirements to gain a training place. This year it is predicted that only 50% of the around 4,500 places will go to graduates from UK medical schools, even though it is recognised that for many UK training is simply a passport to well paid jobs in private hospitals in Singapore, Dubai or their home countries. This is poor workforce planning. If we are going to avoid a future shortage of consultants we need to prioritise those likely to build a future in the UK.
Many young doctors will see a couple of years in Australia as a reasonable fall-back. They accept that they will be taking jobs Australians don’t want and will be at the back of the queue when it comes to specialist training, but they will also be gaining experience in a different healthcare environment.

Others, including those with family or caring responsibilities, or those who brought their families over when offered fixed term contracts, simply face unemployment. We should not be recruiting overseas when we have good, qualified, NHS experienced, doctors, nurses and other HCPs in the UK driving Ubers or working in Tesco.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Needmoresleep · 19/02/2025 16:18

To expand on my post a bit further the person on the previous post said that the fact that F2s were put off from even applying might lead to the NHS making the wrong assumptions about why they weren't applying. The observation from within our, admittedly small sample group is that they are applying the jobs they really want, albeit as a long shot. Hoping that by being known to the consultant, and having good references and appraisals for the department might just tip the balance into getting an interview. But with odds of several hundred to one they weren't making applications to similar posts in other deaneries. What seems to be happening in contrast that overseas applicant supported by agencies, are getting immediate alerts on whatever comes up , and their agencies are able to help make multiple applications. (Another potential piece of evidence for this is apparently a large number of "unappointable" ie wrongly qualified, candidates.)

The sheer number of applications is also causing problems if F2s are working when the post comes up. They can keep their eye on local jobs to ensure they get their application in. More difficult for jobs elsewhere where applications can be closed before they spot them.

This is anecdote not data. But the first step is to spot the symptom

OP posts:
mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 17:27

@modelT let's hope a similar solution is sorted asap. Do you know how long it took in 2006 ?

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 17:33

This is just unbelievable (not related but shows the contempt doctors have to put up with).

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
Marchesman · 19/02/2025 18:02

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 17:33

This is just unbelievable (not related but shows the contempt doctors have to put up with).

Appalling.

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 18:02

Figures to help illustrate our issue

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 18:05

10,000 ish applicants from UK for 12,000 ish training posts 🧐

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 18:06

Some 2025 data just out.

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
modelT · 19/02/2025 18:18

The BMA resident doctor committee has issued a statement saying they were going to lobby for priority for UK graduates (later clarified they want current IMGs to be retained) so that is a big deal. RCP said similar. Streeting says he agrees. When will they reverse ? My guess would be not next round but thereafter ?

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 18:20

Won't be in time for this August I think. But next year looking more hopeful - although the current F1s will be scuppered as current F2s who can't get training will be applying and will have higher portfolio points ! Will take a few years to see the benefit. But some good news. Maybe Wes read us all on here 😊

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 18:33

Seen on Twitter. I'll take it they meant us 'mums' too 😁

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
Auchencar · 19/02/2025 18:54

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 17:33

This is just unbelievable (not related but shows the contempt doctors have to put up with).

Wow this is an absolutely massive mess. Not sure it's doctor specific but the practical impact it might have had on individuals is potentially huge.

Auchencar · 19/02/2025 18:58

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 18:20

Won't be in time for this August I think. But next year looking more hopeful - although the current F1s will be scuppered as current F2s who can't get training will be applying and will have higher portfolio points ! Will take a few years to see the benefit. But some good news. Maybe Wes read us all on here 😊

Assuming change for the 2026 round, the current F2s might have higher portfolio points than the current F1s but not necessarily, so the latter aren't necessarily scuppered.

Needmoresleep · 19/02/2025 18:59

modelT · 19/02/2025 18:18

The BMA resident doctor committee has issued a statement saying they were going to lobby for priority for UK graduates (later clarified they want current IMGs to be retained) so that is a big deal. RCP said similar. Streeting says he agrees. When will they reverse ? My guess would be not next round but thereafter ?

I assume this is for training places? Equally important is F2s, and others having somewhere they can work whilst sitting or resitting exams. Hopefully some ringfencing will ease the arms race on supercurricular, but sucessful applicants will still need to devote time to their applications.

If Australia remains the only option for many there is a real risk that they will find opportunities there and not return.

OP posts:
mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 19:00

@Auchencar but they will. Look at the portfolio points and easy to gain more the more years you work. So most will have more points than F1s could feasibly accrue. MSRA is also easier (apparently) 2nd time around. So current F1s will likely be in the position of current F2s. But it will start to get better every year.

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 19:03

@Needmoresleep v true. Once they see a functioning health service they might decide not to come back.

Marchesman · 19/02/2025 19:04

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 18:33

Seen on Twitter. I'll take it they meant us 'mums' too 😁

I'm not sure what point is being made here. It seems to be the case that about 1000 consultants retire each year, along with a similar number of GPs.

There are 9000 medical graduates p.a. (the MSC wants to increase that to 14,000+). At the same time, the government like others before it, will try to shift activity from secondary to primary care.

The only way this works is if the bottle has a big hole in it.

https://doi.org/10.1177/0141076817738502

Auchencar · 19/02/2025 19:04

mumsneedwine the odds are tilted in the favour of current F2s but it isn't a given that all current F2s will necessarily have more points than current F1s or that all current F2s will do better on the exam, if that's part of the equation for their specialty.

I don't think telling all the current F1s that they're scuppered is particularly pleasant and I personally don't believe it to be true.

OneMorePiece · 19/02/2025 19:05

modelT · 19/02/2025 18:18

The BMA resident doctor committee has issued a statement saying they were going to lobby for priority for UK graduates (later clarified they want current IMGs to be retained) so that is a big deal. RCP said similar. Streeting says he agrees. When will they reverse ? My guess would be not next round but thereafter ?

Is that new IMG group still campaigning hard against prioritisation of UK medical graduates though? Or have they backed down now?

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 19:07

@Marchesman we currently train approx 12,000 medical students and there are currently around 12,000 training posts. While other F3 type roles are being cut they are still there. So, if we prioritise our existing staff they can all be employed and excess jobs can be taken by IMGs (exactly like every other country in the world).

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 19:08

@OneMorePiece they seem to have gone b quiet. I think they were placated once it was made clear that current IMGs already here would be OK. I may be wrong though.

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 19:09

@Auchencar you missed the word 'most' in my post. Maybe only the brightest and best F1s will succeed 😁

OneMorePiece · 19/02/2025 19:09

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 19:08

@OneMorePiece they seem to have gone b quiet. I think they were placated once it was made clear that current IMGs already here would be OK. I may be wrong though.

Do you mean that new one though?

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 19:09

Sorry, in a v chippy mood. Been a long day at work !!

Marchesman · 19/02/2025 19:10

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 19:07

@Marchesman we currently train approx 12,000 medical students and there are currently around 12,000 training posts. While other F3 type roles are being cut they are still there. So, if we prioritise our existing staff they can all be employed and excess jobs can be taken by IMGs (exactly like every other country in the world).

They can be (and are) employed at first but then rapidly have nowhere to go, regardless of IMG numbers.

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 19:11

@OneMorePiece didn't know there was a new one ! I'm not sure how anyone can argue that we should take doctors from abroad when doctors already here are unemployed ? Tricky one to sell to anyone (who won't make money out of PLAB !)