To think my kids are rude?

[Fleurchamp]

My DC are 9 and 7. Eldest is ASD, youngest NT as far as we can tell but at what point are they just rude and misbehaved?

Every morning and night is the same rigmarole. I ask them to get dressed and brush their teeth. Every day they mess around and mess around to the point that I am almost in tears of frustration. They are no better than toddlers, in fact easier as toddlers as I could just put them in their clothes.

I start the "bedtime routine" at 6.45 for an 8pm lights out because it takes me that long to get them into the shower for a quick wash, PJs on, teeth and hair brushed. To get a story they need to be ready at 7.30pm. Tonight neither got a story and they have been crying about it ever since. In fact the eldest was still working his way up to brushing his teeth at 8pm.

They aren't stupid. Before we go up I set out very clearly what they need to do in a calm way. I set the timings. I remind them every 5-10 minutes of how long they have left. My son has boards with everything on because he needs a bit more help (and he gets more slack than the younger one).

But, no. No. They can't do that.

I get a load of abuse when I remind them of the time and that they won't get a story. The youngest is up there now shouting about how awful I am because I didn't read to her.

DH works long hours (quite possibly for this reason) and so isn't here Mon- Fri for this absolute shitshow. I try so hard to keep my cool but every morning and evening is the same.

I don't know where I have gone wrong but I so obviously have - they are the rudest most badly behaved children I have ever encountered.

Do you think they would respond better if you got them ready separately? That way they wouldn’t wind each other up or have anyone to mess around with?

You could leave your eldest downstairs whilst you sort your youngest and then once your youngest in in bed get your eldest ready?

Yes - on the occasions they are here alone or at weekends when DH is home it can work but the eldest won't be left upstairs/ downstairs on his own. He has to be able to see us.

The eldest definitely winds up the youngest (and at times deliberately makes her late) but she is not stupid and we have explained to her that she needs to ignore her brother and stay focussed on getting herself ready. Never works though.

I just thought by this stage I wouldn't be having to do this.

That sounds stressful. If the routine isn’t working maybe look at changing it. I would try starting later to reduce the stress for all of you.
When you say a board with “ everything on” that might be overwhelming. A bedtime routine strip where symbols can be physically moved or replaced by a star might help.
I would try to always have the story in but maybe say only time for one if they aren’t ready. Aim For 2 or 3 or however many chapters. Make the end goal clear First pyjamas then story for e.g. I know the routine is much longer.
Make it fun/ give them choices if you can e.g. blue or green pyjamas ( if choices aren’t stressful)
Set some challenges e.g. I bet you can’t get your pyjamas on by the time I’ve got your uniform ready for morning instead of just keep reminding them.
Try toothbrushes that play music ( heard by child when using correct pressure) recommended for autistic children with sensory needs
Use timers or pieces of music. Lots of visual countdown timers available e.g. pop up novelty kitchen timers or a countdown on a watch/ tablet.
Try a piece of music and see if they can complete a task before it ends
Maybe involve them in ideas for changing the routine. They may have suggestions.
Use praise and try to be positive even if you are feeling tired and frustrated.

Have a very similar age gap and ASD eldest as well. Bedtime is not quite as fraught but in general we have similar issues around transitions - mornings are worse as they have to be at school on time. Clearly they are capable of getting dressed and brushing teeth but it is rare that they would manage without help and massive prompting along the way. I find my ASD one gets worse the more it is made a stressful thing and will only really respond to timing things if it is linked with getting screen time (so mornings can be better if it is complete all steps then screen time). Sorry no actual advice but just to say very similar experiences and hopefully they will grow out of it soon

Stories before bed are a time when a child can wind down and feel secure and loved by their parent.

That's something that should not be conditional.

Children should always feel that way before they go to sleep.

Well, yes, in an ideal world.

I would love to be able to have a calm, peaceful bedtime with a story.

Now I just feel even worse. Can always rely on Mumsnet to kick you when you are down.

Do you think this routine is a bit early for the eldest? It’s a small age gap but they aren’t the same age as one another. A suitable bedtime for a 7 yo is not suitable for a 9 yo in most cases.

Can you get the youngest started first, and then the eldest starts when you’re reading to the younger, so they each get their own story?

Would it help to do storytime first so that they’re calm before they start getting ready for bed?

So you are effectively sadly a single parent? Does he run this shitshow and do absolutely everything at the weekend at least - the house, the kids, everything, so you can rest?
Remember you are not his slave.

Well, for tonight it won’t kill them to be jolly cross and you never know, ir
might actually sink in that Mummy means it and if they arse a round again they don’t get a story. Of course not getting a story doesn’t mean they aren’t loved, that’s nonsense.

But changing the routine might help. Do they need a shower every night?

Yes - you are probably right. For my son he stays up later reading as he doesn't fall asleep easily, he is still winding down at 9/9.30 (he always takes at least an hour so we do have to get this process started early).

I think we need to try something else as this just isn't working.

We used to do that actually but it did not lead to a calm process... they love the story and so it used to be a carrot to get ready but not anymore.

He does take over at the weekend at least (and half the time I end up going to the gym/ for a walk as I just cannot stand bedtime) and he does try to come home earlier during the week but unless he comes home by 7 he just ends up causing even more mayhem as they run downstairs to see him....

Been there op. I don't think we handled it well but we are now coming out of it age 9 /11 / nearly 13. Oldest and youngest autistic.

Various things to try are

• separate them
• get them pj's super early / shower straight after tea (we did a lot less washing)
• try to nail down the same thing every time
• melatonin.
• consistent routine but only one parent doing each night / or one per kid. Ie you get a break!!

Good luck. This has been really tough for us

What about trying them getting ready for bed and being able to come back down for something that feels more of a treat than a story? Mine responded quite well to this, getting changed and teeth at 7pm and race downstairs for either a game or brief programme depending on your rules around screen time. I think to get out of bad habits (theirs not yours) sometimes you need to completely change the routine up.
Minr have a movie night on the weekend where they can stay up late but only have that if they go to bed ok in the week although it depends on whether your children respond to a further away positive as mine don’t always

My bedtimes take ages too and they’re often a nightmare. It’s rubbish isn’t it.

Ive been trying to change things up recently. Playing music and dancing, or getting one to read to the other one, or me writing and then reading my own story.

I don’t know what the permanent solution is, but changing the arrangement has helped even short term. Hiding a story you’ve written in their bed? Sticking a story to the wall? Making the bed upside down?

I don’t necessarily think these are long term things but something to shake it up can help. All the best x

Other option at this age is sit them down and say this is the problem and no one is happy and getting what they want so give me the solution; you might be surprised at what they suggest and it gives them ownership of the problem

Read the room, mate.

I would make things easier for everyone and simplify the bedtime routine. They don't need to shower everynight. Once or twice a week would be fine so long as they're not caked in mud! No need to brush hair before bed.

Warm the Pjs on the radiator and tell them to get them in while they're still warm. Teeth brushed while story is starting, pause reading so they can spit, then carry on.

I think bedtime is starting way too early for them both. Are they tired, it sounds like they're still full of beans!

Don’t worry my love, my 90’s mum would have done the same if I’d have behaved that badly. These days people are too scared of delivering consequences. If they are being little shits, why reward with something they like?

Thanks everyone - lots of food for thought.

DH and I are going to call a family meeting this weekend and come up with some bedtime rules to make it a better experience for us all.

A couple of suggestions,
Remove story from bedtime, reduce the amount to do, to get changed, teeth, bed. Do stories at another time, just chilling. Shower at another time.
Another, do you have a close friend who is very 'no nonsense' who could come and do bedtime.
Years ago, a friend got me to do that with her 2 who messed about all evening. I went round to 'babysit', they didn't try it on then. It reset them,

That wasn't the intention OP and I'm sorry for that.

All I mean is that if you think about the reasons underneath why your kids are struggling with bed time and why they're getting so upset, it might be because they aren't feeling that unconditional love from you. They are having quite a negative experience of bedtime all around.

It's important to give them something positive at bedtime, even if they aren't behaving well.

What you’re doing isn’t working. Constantly telling them and then checking in with them to remind them every 5-10 minutes isn’t working.

So you need to change up what you’re doing. You need to stand and do it with them. Whether or not you think you shouldn’t be having to do this is irrelevant, because you do.

Don’t punish them by refusing to read them a story. The benefits of a story at bedtime and that time together is incredibly important and should not be used as a tool to punish.

God you have the patience of a saint. Shouldn’t they be putting themselves to bed at that stage? The big “bed time routine” thing is for much younger children?