To think my kids are rude?

[Fleurchamp]

My DC are 9 and 7. Eldest is ASD, youngest NT as far as we can tell but at what point are they just rude and misbehaved?

Every morning and night is the same rigmarole. I ask them to get dressed and brush their teeth. Every day they mess around and mess around to the point that I am almost in tears of frustration. They are no better than toddlers, in fact easier as toddlers as I could just put them in their clothes.

I start the "bedtime routine" at 6.45 for an 8pm lights out because it takes me that long to get them into the shower for a quick wash, PJs on, teeth and hair brushed. To get a story they need to be ready at 7.30pm. Tonight neither got a story and they have been crying about it ever since. In fact the eldest was still working his way up to brushing his teeth at 8pm.

They aren't stupid. Before we go up I set out very clearly what they need to do in a calm way. I set the timings. I remind them every 5-10 minutes of how long they have left. My son has boards with everything on because he needs a bit more help (and he gets more slack than the younger one).

But, no. No. They can't do that.

I get a load of abuse when I remind them of the time and that they won't get a story. The youngest is up there now shouting about how awful I am because I didn't read to her.

DH works long hours (quite possibly for this reason) and so isn't here Mon- Fri for this absolute shitshow. I try so hard to keep my cool but every morning and evening is the same.

I don't know where I have gone wrong but I so obviously have - they are the rudest most badly behaved children I have ever encountered.

I would expect husband to step up and do a child each. Max 30 minutes.

If no husband I would do wach child on it own. Max 30 minutes.

They don't need a shower every night. Not worth it if they can't handle it.

They are playing you. You need a routine and stick to it. And you to be firm. No rigmarole.

We used to do showers before bed but now do them in the morning before school, at weekends he likes a long bath so that is often late afternoon/early evening, but it took an element out of it. So now it's PJs, teeth, story, lights out . This time of year PJs are in the radiator warming, which helps, quick quick lets get them on before they cool down etc. DS has a yoto player and if he gets ready nicely he can have 15/30 minutes of that after lights out and he wants to hear the next bit of the story so that's a good incentive. 20 minutes between going upstairs and lights being out.

Shitshow at ours as well. Oldest Asd 15 y, youngest 11 soon 12. Youngest very mature when alone but regress to toddler behaviour with older brother. It's hard when you got an immature ASD child because rules do not apply and the younger one gets disorientated because of it.
My only advice is to separate them. One starts with one task while the other does something else.

On nights where they need a shower can you separate that bit?

Shower + put PJ’s on. Back downstairs for a quick programme, book or a game.

Back up - brush teeth, into bed. Older can snuggle in and listen to younger ones story or stay downstairs until you’re done. Then do their story. If they struggle to sleep straight away they can read in bed for 1/2 an hour or so.

You need to cut out anything that isn't essential to the bedtime routine from it.
Showering can be done at another time of the day. If you think they need one daily, then straight after school might work best.
Routine can be, pjs, teeth brushing and story in bed. They will likely mess around less for their shower if it cuts into after-school play time. And they will enjoy that they can start their bedtime routine slightly later too.

I agree that it's a very early bedtime. Sounds hard though and I do sympathise

If your eldest is neurodiverse it's very likely your younger one is as well. Girls present very differently to boys and are often diagnosed much later.

I think you need to speak to DH without the children and tell him he needs to be home for bedtime so that you can split the children between you. One gets DD washed and ready while the other has quality time with the oldest. Then when DD is having a story, oldest gets washed and ready and has his story once DD is asleep.

I think bedtime is a difficult part of the day for many people - everyone is tired and wants a break and nobody is on their best behaviour.

Divide and conquer. I have twins, I get it.

I don't think you should ever skip reading your kids a bedtime story. Other consequences are available.

Sounds like they are heavily babied to me.

Tell them to go and brush their teeth. If they refuse then take them by the hand and march them to the bathroom. You're allowing them to piss about ignoring you for over an hour, they clearly know they can get away with it.

ASD kids are nuerologically much younger than their chronological age.

Pictograms? Do you have them? Do you have a time timer showing how long they have left? Are there any rewards for good bedtimes? Eg 4 good bedtimes in a week gets a treat.

This sounds really hard. Just some thoughts you’ve likely considered but just in case. Reduce screen time. Maybe some kind of exercise /blowing off steam before bed? Do 7 year old first and then 9 year old. Good luck!

The 9yo has autism and so it's very likely the younger one does too, even though she's not diagnosed.

It's very normal for neurodivergent children to struggle with self-care, changes (like going to bed) and showers which can cause serious sensory overload.

Why don’t you try shower & PJs at a different time. They’re probably messing around as they’re trying to delay going to bed.

Shower & PJs after dinner then they can watch educational tv: history/nature documentaries. When you want them to go to bed you give them two choices: you’re going to pick what goes on tv so they can watch homes under the hammer (something dull) with you or if they want a story/being tucked in they have to go to bed NOW before you have your tv time.

I am ND and hated bedtimes as a kid. Why would I behave to make my parents life easier when I was deliberately trying to be difficult to get an extra thirsty minutes.

To a mother who is clearly at the end of her tether and you comment this. Nice.

The eldest definitely winds up the youngest (and at times deliberately makes her late) but she is not stupid and we have explained to her that she needs to ignore her brother and stay focussed on getting herself ready. Never works though.

This is your problem to solve rather than your youngest's. She needs to be protected from the "winding up" and sabotage from her elder sibling. You need to come up with a solution to prevent this happening before you blame her for not "ignoring" her brother.

Oh God, the Gentle Parenting brigade are here.
Ignore, OP. It’s actually OK for kids to be made to feel bad when they have chosen to behave like little tossers.

So, like I said, you take them to the bathroom and say "it's time to brush your teeth now" and stand there while they do it. Giving them the instruction and leaving them to it is never going to work.

I would try and switch up the timings, get shower and pjs done right after dinner. Kids sometimes just play up because they don’t want to go to bed no matter how tired or how much they need to sleep, they just don’t want to and that translates to silliness and delaying techniques. Get them in their pjs then let them play for an hour or watch a little bit of tv or something, maybe a family board game or something like that. Then when it’s actually bed time all you need to do is the story, teeth then into bed.

also OP ignore the comments saying you shouldn’t have removed the story. I absolutely would have as well. Honestly all this chat that the kids don’t feel loved and that’s why they are playing up is nonsense and designed to make mothers feel guilty. Sometimes kids play up, it’s developmentally normal for them to drive their parents to the brink of insanity and not getting a story at bedtime because time has ran out is a natural consequence.

I would try:

Bath & PJs straight after school
skip the hair brushing at night if possible
That just leaves toilet, teeth & story for bedtime.

bribe them with some warm milk if they get in bed by a certain time

Hot water bottles always seem to help too

Good luck

Shitshow here too so sounds pretty standard. I have ASC DS8 and getting him to go (the fuck) to sleep takes me 2 hours every night, most of it using my best sergeant major voice. My only sensible suggestion is trying a bath instead of a shower as it seems to zonk DS. Weighted blankets are good. I have also used timers in the past, ie no story unless PJ’s on before the time runs out. Thats not exactly relaxing for DS though…

Get that down to half an hour. By taking so long over it there is more time for them to be awful and wind you and each other up.

Start at 7pm. 7 - 7.30pm is quiet time - either watching something very chilled out together, or THAT's when you read to them, so that they're not bouncing off the walls when you suddenly announce bedtime, and also so that YOU are relaxed and calm as well.

At that age I wouldn't be bothered with showers. They take forever, and how smelly are they really? Twice a week is fine. It's just another opportunity for them to wind you up.

7.30pm - go upstairs first and fill the sink with hot water, and clean facecloths. Everyone into the bathroom together. Stand over them. Child 1 washes hands and face while child 2 gets into pyjamas, swap. Brush teeth - you might have to stand between them so that they don't touch or pull at each other.

10 mins flat. Have a visible timer.

No chatting/smiling/"now darling please, leave your brother alone" but bring out Scary Fleurchamp.

They're taking the piss because you're being completely wet, and possibly just shouting at them when you are already distressed and overwhelmed, when it's least likely to achieve anything except upsetting everyone, especially you. Get in there first with being strict & zero tolerance for any bullshit. You shouldn't need to raise your voice at all, but if you have to, do it BEFORE they're screaming at each other.

The abuse? Knock that on the head NOW. It doesn't matter how scary you need to be. Confiscate stuff etc. - whatever you know works on them, and be utterly terrifying about it. You're an adult, and they need to see a side of you that they can't wear down by being awful. But don't remove stories or a goodnight hug and kiss, because otherwise they'll just wail until 9pm as you've found. They also need to be able to depend on you loving them.

Bed, another story, but out the door in 15 minutes.

Mine are the same age gap, and this kind of thing tended to come in phases.They WILL calm down!

No, it isn't. It is not emotionally healthy to make children feel bad.

A child is not responsible for their parents’ emotions.

What ARE they responsible for then?

A child is not responsible for a parent's feeling of, say, anger at a colleague at work. A child IS responsible for the feelings of the adults around them when they hit their sibling, scream "I HATE YOU" or refuse to get ready for bed. As adults we have a social contract with each other to behave a certain way, and as parents we have a responsibility to teach our children how that social contract works, otherwise we're raising feckless sociopaths.

"Don't fling food at your brother because it will make Mummy sad" is obviously a completely useless/lazy/manipulative way to position it but "Don't fling food at your brother because that is a completely unacceptable way to behave at the dinner table - clean it up immediately. Go to the kitchen and get a cloth now. I will show you what to do." is effective and teaches them a lesson in behaviour, and it's actually fine if that makes them feel bad.