To think school can be damaging for some children

[AliceAbsolum]

I'm looking into schools for DD. I thought I'd be interested in SATs results, but actually we are leaning towards the more relaxed/forest schooly (whatever the fuck that means) no or very little homework style.
I think especially in the 4-11 age group, and with the current mental health crisis with young people, I'm just scared school will be yet another aspect of toxic modern life that will damage her.

If you have wanted to homeschool but cant, or have similar worries, what kind of state primary school would you consider for your DC?

I'm not in your position but I do agree that school can be damaging - I feel like it definitely damaged me and I wasn't given options; I was left to sink or swim in an environment that was wrong for me. I hold a grudge about it all these years later

Thankfully there are so many more options these days

Best of luck to you and your DD

I think the issue with schools isn't really about primary schools but actually about secondary schools

Very few children seem to really dislike primary from my own observations....but huge numbers seem to really dislike secondary.

Secondary schools are getting stricter and stricter...my ds absolutely loved primary and ended up hating secondary.

I can see the appeal of a primary school which is more chilled out but my concern would be what's your plan for secondary.... because it's enough of a shock to their system when they move up from an average primary.

Yes school can definitely be damaging. I hated school, everything about it other than the lessons which for the most part were OK. It was the other kids - some just ignored me (fine), others were outright bullies - and the fact that the teachers wouldn't take any action because it always came down to a he said/she said disagreement. This was before CCTV was widespread though.

I know many people think lockdown damaged kids. If a pandemic had happened when I was at school (and if the technology was magically advanced enough back then) I would have thrived during lockdown. If I could just be left alone and get on with the work rather than having to look over my shoulder all the time, those 14 years or so might have been a little brighter. (To be fair, sixth form was better, most of the real psychopaths had "gone on the nash" by sixth form.)

Mine thrives in school. Staying home in Covid was damaging to her.

She is in year 11 and some of her friends could never get back into the swing of going and would drop out for long periods of time but thankfully they’ve turned it around in time for exams. Her close friends were living very poorly by staying in bed all day while not attending which is way more damaging.

YANBU at all OP.

i was thinking about this this very morning.

i was bullied and humiliated badly in school.

i wish I’d been homeschooled. This is because even if some might say you’re ‘sheltered’ if homeschooled - a homeschooled kid would certainly develop the maturity that life experience brings by the time they’re 18, and don’t have the experience of having been bullied or humiliated in school

Some parents like Steiner schools for a different approach, however these will be private. I don't think you will find a state school that can offer a relaxed approach. Some will have a forest school but not all and this will be possibly selected year groups and only one session once a week for a term. Some schools will not set homework but many do (ours never used to but has now started doing this weekly across all year groups, I assume as they are under pressure for kids to keep up with learning).
I think if you would need to look at home school to give you want you want and to then buy in to the different activities e.g. sign up for forest school for home educators for a term.

School absolutely can be damaging for children at all ages. DD ended up on daily medication for stress related migraines at age 8 due to school issues. We pulled her out to home educate. She chose to attend secondary school, which has also been problematic. But even at primary level, school can be an environment that causes some children anxiety and harm. When home educating we met so many families with children of primary age who felt they'd had no choice to deregister because of unmet SEN or distress caused by an environment that was inappropriate for their child. Particularly at primary level, I would definitely advise finding a school with a nurturing environment rather than Sats results.

I understand your concerns and whilst school can be awful for some students, the real world isn’t an easy place to navigate and there are awful people we have to deal with.

I think it’s awful if one child is getting singled out and bullied daily by others and can absolutely see how that would affect their MH and can understand a parent changing their schools etc, however, I know a Mam and she told me her son is getting bullied so I asked what was happening… it transpired that he hiccuped in class and the class clown shouted ‘Sonny’s just farted’ and sonny was embarrassed but that’s not bullying as it’s not targeted. He would have makes the same ‘joke’ if any other child made the same noise.

I think taking them out of mainstream school can be equally as damaging as they won’t know how to interact in the real world potentially. It’s like “Jack the lad” “banter” or a bit of “fun”.

I think kids will be kids and from what my DC says who’s in year 11, you have to learn to take some stick in good humour. If everyone is offended by every last thing then the real world is going to be a tough place.

It’s knowing what’s actual bullying and singling someone out to make them feel shit or your mates saying “Jonnys just farted miss” for a laugh.

My DD was absolutely fine at primary school, she struggled a little with the pressure they put on them for SATs but generally enjoyed her time there.

It was secondary school the wheels fell off, for her and all her friends. They are all struggling, they absolutely hate it. They are all really anxious and unhappy, struggle with the work load, the ridiculous rules, constantly being told off for very minor things. They are not happy children anymore and it’s so sad.

Oh Op, I completely feel your pain.

I recently submitted the primary school application form for my 4yo. I looked at a hideous amount of schools, I looked into every area possible of each school I ‘shortlisted’ and still was so unsure even after submitting the application, and this is only primary school.

I loved primary myself, I do wonder if I just got lucky, but then like a PP said, I think generally children of primary age do typically like school. At that age, the bullying/humiliation/anxiety of school is less.

Secondary school terrifies me. Luckily I have a while yet but I know that I will be extremely anxious about it, when that time comes around. I HATED secondary school with a passion. It completely wrecked me. I would 100% consider homeschooling should my children show any signs of ‘damage’.

It’s tough, I think a lot of parents will feel similarly.

Do you have SEN children?

Sats mean very little, so I would not judge a school based on that.

From my experience, ask about discipline and their approach to Sen and behaviour management. If they are very rigid with this and use isolation, punishment, shame as tools to control the children, run away.
Nurturing should be everything at primary, and would benefit secondary kids also. The currently used systems of punishment are damaging to all children, but especially those with additional needs. Add in all the other societal pressures and possible bullying, schools are quite horrendous for many.

The reality though is that it’s hard to homeschool now purely because both parents need to earn a living. It ends up potentially costing more than private schooling when you look at resources, education groups, having to enter privately for exams at 16, presuming you want them to try and get qualifications. You may be able to make it work for you.

In my case I had to get mine into school as I needed to work and also needed time away from them, at least during the primary years. We had a very bad experience with 1 primary school, so ds was at home for almost a year, but then managed to find an incredible state primary who operated very differently, they had him back in full time within a week and he left at the end of y6 with incredible sats and is now really doing well at secondary - because we learned what worked for him and I was relentless in making sure the secondary followed the same processes. If the Head is on board with that sort of mindset, the rest will follow. Good luck.

Mine really enjoyed primary school, I think it is generally just a more fun environment. I would always go for a smaller one personally, it is just easier to manage a smaller amount of children, where all the teachers know all the children and all the ages tend to mix together more.

Going to a large Secondary school from a lovely little village primary can be a bit of an eye opener. Until you get to that point it's hard to know how they will cope, they might do really well, plenty do. DS is autistic and dyspraxic and despite this, enjoyed state primary school and got through state secondary school unscathed.

I would say to give them the best chance I would really encourage a love of education, particularly reading in your dd - being a good reader quickly becomes a vital skill across all subjects. Help with homework and get involved her education, don't see it as something that just happens at school. School is much easier if you feel you can cope with the academics.

Then encourage friendships, get to know the other parents if you can, have friends round for tea, have a birthday party and invite her friends. Having friends at school also makes it a much nicer place to be and at primary age parents (often mums) are generally a big part of their kids social lives.

There's every chance she'll love school, don't let your anxiety and concerns rub off on her. Be positive, she will no doubt have loads of special, lovely moments during her time at school.

I certainly had some school experiences I wish I had avoided.
but school is not just about education in my eyes, it exposes children to the fact life is not fair for everyone. That everyone has different backgrounds and abilities. Most people will remember poorer families or those who had a difficult home life. These types of things help shape children’s understanding and empathy. Funnily enough I’m now a social worker.
no idea what you mean about what kind of school sorry. In Scotland they are the same unless private

I definitely agree with the first paragraph but I think that adults have got more life experience to fall back on and more confidence and can deal with difficult people better

I would with a lot of very traumatised children and school can sometimes be a huge compounding issue. It’s not necessarily the cause of their struggles but there can be a lack of understanding and therefore they can sometimes find it a difficult, overwhelming and seemingly uncaring place to be.

I think the issue here is probably a lot more complicated. From my own experience in two schools trying to get the teachers to even acknowledge that bullying exists, I’m willing to bet that the teacher encourages the class clown and allows him to humiliate other children without consequence. I’m also willing to bet that if any of the none favourite kids would have called out with the same joke they would have got detention and a phone call to their parents about their disruptive behaviour.
I swear parents would go mental if they knew how abusive and toxic school environments are while teachers pretend they don’t see anything.

Schools can be a great gateway into adult life. The no homework/maximum chill vibes might be good for them but they are in for a huge shock when they try and take that into the workplace.

I think the school system is flawed and not for every child, but I think on the whole schools and teachers do have the best interests of the kids at heart and it is still better than swathes of kids being taught at home

I am not going to belittle your experiences, but you clearly have no idea how hard it is to deal with bullying as a teacher or even as a school.
With the various hair brained schemes put forward by experts, supported by SLT and the HT and the rules around expulsion by the DFE, and lets not forget the parents that believe that their children can do no wrong.
Once you recognise all of that its easy to see why some teachers don't acknowledge bullying.

I think the real world is very different - adult behaviour is more civilised and you have a lot more choice of how to spend your time and can generally avoid anyone really unpleasant. I don't work with or know anyone who'd try to humiliate me for farting for example. Which is just as well given my childbirth injuries!

Some kids just don't fit in at school and get targeted and even the low level stuff can be really upsetting if it's constant. Those same kids can be perfectly fine in adult life, but if their confidence is destroyed by horrible school years it might have a permanent effect

Yes... There were some teachers in my school who allowed bullying and some who didn't. It's not inevitable. It's to do with teachers having favourites or being scared of the scary kids or even quite enjoying picking on the nerdy kid themselves. Most teachers in my school did not allow bullying in class time. I can only think of 3 who did. Another couple got bullied themselves

I think it applies at all ages that not all environments suit everyone and we need to recognise that.

Some children would be better being homeschooling or in a small school with 20 pupils total. Others thrive in a big busy school. Some are better in a regimented school others need it more relaxed.

Just like some adults are better in an office than WFH or doing a physical rather than intellectual job. Or excel at data input roles rather than creative.

We focus too much on putting people in boxes.

Interestingly, I have two different viewpoints on this. My family lived on a council estate but as both my parents worked we were the “better off” family on our street. We had cars, TV and a phone (rare in council houses in the 60s) plus parent valued education and were quite liberal. I absolutely loved primary school. I was popular, high achieving and happy.
Roll on secondary school. Passed the 11+ so went to a grammar school whereas all the other children in my class didn’t. It was quite posh by my standards, we wore velour hats as part of our uniform. Very formal. Half the girls were Jewish and antisemitism from some of the other girls was very obvious with hindsight. I was a total outsider, treated quite badly by other girls and teachers equally. I hated it from midway Year 7 til I left at 16.
I went from being confident and eager to learn to being introverted with no self esteem. It was the schools I went to that did that, not school as such.

you have missed out being scared of the parents and lack of support from SLT as they are scared of the parents as well.

All primary schools are relaxed