To tell friend not to drive 4 yr old without car seat?

Tropicalturnip · 2025-02-10T14:51:53+00:00

My friend is doing me a huge favour by having my 2 DC (2 and 4) for the day in a couple of weeks, they plan to go out to an activity a car drive away. Friend is looking after them with her partner along with their own young DC1, so they would need 3 car seats, which don't all fit in one car. Friend told me she intends to sit my eldest in the middle with a seat belt, as it's legal to do so after she's checked the gov website etc. (This is correct, which astounds me!) This is just a one off journey but it's about half an hour there and half an hour back. I know children can go in taxis without a car seat - but they have 2 cars and if they drove separately they could have them all in a proper car seat. AIBU to say I'd rather them go in 2 cars and obviously give them some money for petrol etc but I'd rather my DC be safe? Or am I being precious as it's just a one off and it's perfectly fine in a taxi etc? Edited to add my eldest child is quite tall for their age if that makes a difference!

toomuchfaff · 10/02/2025 14:55

Yes YABVU to expect them both to drive to do you a favour when as you've pointed out kids can go in taxis without child seats, and the proposed plan doesn't sound unreasonable.

If you're that stuck on the car seat, then don't let your child go.

EliflurtleAndTheInfiniteMadness · 10/02/2025 14:57

I wouldn't let my child go without a car seat but I also wouldn't ask them to take 2 cars to do me a favour. Im your shoes I'd look for different child care for the day.

BertieBotts · 10/02/2025 14:58

Can you get a Bubble Bum seat for your DC? It's much slimmer than other boosters so should fit between the two.

I think you're within your rights to say actually I'm not comfortable and not give permission for your DC to travel in the car without a seat.

I don't think you can insist that they take two cars. You could offer money for petrol if they are clear that is the issue, and if you're close enough but it might come across as strange otherwise.

BertieBotts · 10/02/2025 15:00

ie, there might be other reasons they don't want to take two cars being what I mean. Like one parent might want to drive on the way there and the other on the way back to share the tiredness given they are taking 3 young DC out for the day.

Original poster

Tropicalturnip · 10/02/2025 15:00

toomuchfaff · 10/02/2025 14:55

Yes YABVU to expect them both to drive to do you a favour when as you've pointed out kids can go in taxis without child seats, and the proposed plan doesn't sound unreasonable.

If you're that stuck on the car seat, then don't let your child go.

Perfectly happy to be told I'm being unreasonable, as I say it's a one off journey and they are doing me a favour. but car seat safety is so drilled in to you as parents, rear face as long as possible, the dangers of wearing a coat in case straps don't fit, etc etc

I'm also genuinely wondering how a normal seat belt would hold a 4yr old in properly with no booster? If anything were to happen would they be protected? Can you get anything to make the belt sit on their shoulder not her face / neck? Idk.

If I'm not comfortable with it I'm also happy to cancel 🤷 just never ever thought about this before so it was a shock when she suggested it. Wondered if anyone has done it and can shed any more light on how this would go down?

OP posts:

Srophia34 · 10/02/2025 15:01

As above, within your rights to not allow the journey, but unreasonable to ask them to take two cars especially as they have checked the guidance so they're not trying to be unsafe.

Either find alternative childcare or a feasible alternative travel option/activity.

MumChp · 10/02/2025 15:02

Yes. I would expect my child in a car seat.

I have asked my husband or mum to drive if I couldn't fit kids in one car.
if no possible we go on the bus/train.
If I couldn't sort transport we would stay at home.

I would find another babysitter.

Original poster

Tropicalturnip · 10/02/2025 15:03

BertieBotts · 10/02/2025 14:58

Can you get a Bubble Bum seat for your DC? It's much slimmer than other boosters so should fit between the two.

I think you're within your rights to say actually I'm not comfortable and not give permission for your DC to travel in the car without a seat.

I don't think you can insist that they take two cars. You could offer money for petrol if they are clear that is the issue, and if you're close enough but it might come across as strange otherwise.

Thank you - this actually looks like it could be a perfect solution!

OP posts:

tiggergoesbounce · 10/02/2025 15:04

How close a friend is she, I would not let my child travel without a car seat at 4 years old. If she is a friend, surely you can just have an open and honest chat, to say you are not comfortable with it, and arrange other plans.

I also don't let other kids travel in my car without a car seat.

NannyR · 10/02/2025 15:04

Is the car big enough to have one of the adults squeezed in between the two carseats in the back? Then the oldest child could go in the front seat in a carseat.

PercyPigInAWig · 10/02/2025 15:05

I wouldn’t have this person look after my DC because frankly anyone who would think that is an okay plan is not on my wavelength at all.
I don’t care if it’s legal, doesn’t make it safe and I would question their judgement.
This is not just hypothetical, close family members on DH’s side have a similarly lax approach to car seat safety and we have seen how it translates in a lot of other safety aspects that are a deal breaker for us.

MumonabikeE5 · 10/02/2025 15:07

rhis would be a deal breaker for me. And would withdraw my request for help it doesn’t have to be heavy, but it’s simple, the car doesn’t have enough space for my child in her car seat, so she can’t go with them. You are better off asking someone who can come to your house to be with your kids.
immnot sure if want friends to be responsible for my kids at an activity centre when they were so young either. and I’m not a crazy helicopter mum.

Original poster

Tropicalturnip · 10/02/2025 15:07

tiggergoesbounce · 10/02/2025 15:04

How close a friend is she, I would not let my child travel without a car seat at 4 years old. If she is a friend, surely you can just have an open and honest chat, to say you are not comfortable with it, and arrange other plans.

I also don't let other kids travel in my car without a car seat.

She's a really good friend so I think she'd be understanding, but equally I would feel awkward asking them to go in 2 cars which is why I put my post on. I've had other people's kids before and I'd never ever dream of considering taking them anywhere without a car seat, legal or not - so I guess because it's never crossed my mind before I didn't know how reasonable it seemed!

OP posts:

olympicsrock · 10/02/2025 15:09

I’d want the 4 year old to have a booster seat, even if just a simple narrow booster .
Otherwise they could
stay at home
take 2 cars
you could find alternative childcare.

Moonnstars · 10/02/2025 15:16

I would not let my children go in a car without a car seat and they are much older.
I would look for different childcare arrangements as to expect them to take two cars seems unreasonable and an extra cost.

BertieBotts · 10/02/2025 15:16

For a 4yo a seatbelt will still restrain them, particularly from ejection and head injuries which are the two biggest dangers in a car accident. They will also gain some side impact protection from being physically further away from the sides of the car and being behind the other two car seats. They are less likely to hit their head on the seat in front because there is no seat directly in front of them. The vast vast majority of cars on the road today have a full lap and shoulder belt in the centre (not just a lap belt).

The reason 4yos are normally legally required to be at least on a booster cushion (preferably in a full high back booster or even ERF seat or 5 point harness) is because their legs are normally so small/thin and their pelvis isn't large enough for the lap belt to be seated properly, over the pelvis. (Top of thighs touching the pelvis is also OK). Seatbelts are designed to rest over the pelvis because it's a strong, solid body part and it keeps you pinned in place in your seat. In younger children, the "arms" of the booster seat keep the lap belt in the right place.

So if they are in an accident and not on a booster seat, the danger is that their pelvis slides under the seatbelt, and the belt tightens onto their abdomen which is much softer and contains vital organs so you don't really want it taking a load of force in an accident.

It's not great. It's not as big of a danger as head injuries or going flying out of the seat - which is why it's allowed as an exception. But you get better outcomes on average when primary-aged children are at least in a booster seat positioning the lap belt properly.

Seatbelt is definitely better than nothing at 4.

Backless booster better than just the seatbelt.

High back booster (or other type of child restraint if child fits) best of all.

Don't be tempted to suggest she sits on a cushion or a thick book or similar BTW - it has to be a booster seat because only a proper booster seat has the arms or clips which secure it to the seatbelt. A cushion is not secured to anything, so is potentially worse than just the seatbelt on its own. And avoid the dodgy polystyrene booster seats on amazon which just have fabric flaps as the belt guides. I don't actually think they meet guidelines despite what the listings say. Bubble Bum isn't the best thing for a 4yo, but it is properly tested, should fit between two seats, and ought to be an improvement over the seatbelt if you decide to let her go.

Original poster

Tropicalturnip · 10/02/2025 15:35

BertieBotts · 10/02/2025 15:16

For a 4yo a seatbelt will still restrain them, particularly from ejection and head injuries which are the two biggest dangers in a car accident. They will also gain some side impact protection from being physically further away from the sides of the car and being behind the other two car seats. They are less likely to hit their head on the seat in front because there is no seat directly in front of them. The vast vast majority of cars on the road today have a full lap and shoulder belt in the centre (not just a lap belt).

The reason 4yos are normally legally required to be at least on a booster cushion (preferably in a full high back booster or even ERF seat or 5 point harness) is because their legs are normally so small/thin and their pelvis isn't large enough for the lap belt to be seated properly, over the pelvis. (Top of thighs touching the pelvis is also OK). Seatbelts are designed to rest over the pelvis because it's a strong, solid body part and it keeps you pinned in place in your seat. In younger children, the "arms" of the booster seat keep the lap belt in the right place.

So if they are in an accident and not on a booster seat, the danger is that their pelvis slides under the seatbelt, and the belt tightens onto their abdomen which is much softer and contains vital organs so you don't really want it taking a load of force in an accident.

It's not great. It's not as big of a danger as head injuries or going flying out of the seat - which is why it's allowed as an exception. But you get better outcomes on average when primary-aged children are at least in a booster seat positioning the lap belt properly.

Seatbelt is definitely better than nothing at 4.

Backless booster better than just the seatbelt.

High back booster (or other type of child restraint if child fits) best of all.

Don't be tempted to suggest she sits on a cushion or a thick book or similar BTW - it has to be a booster seat because only a proper booster seat has the arms or clips which secure it to the seatbelt. A cushion is not secured to anything, so is potentially worse than just the seatbelt on its own. And avoid the dodgy polystyrene booster seats on amazon which just have fabric flaps as the belt guides. I don't actually think they meet guidelines despite what the listings say. Bubble Bum isn't the best thing for a 4yo, but it is properly tested, should fit between two seats, and ought to be an improvement over the seatbelt if you decide to let her go.

To be fair they don't have to take them anywhere - they are walking distance from lots of places, but they wanted to do this activity which is lovely of them and perfectly reasonable on their part.

I have ordered that slim bubble booster @BertieBotts kindly suggested (thank you!) and hope it fits, I can't remember the car they have but it's definitely mid size, so should fit. I think I'd be ok with that as a one off journey.

OP posts:

QuestionableMouse · 10/02/2025 15:35

I think if you ask them to take two cars, you might find you don't have childcare.

Vaxtable · 10/02/2025 15:39

I would ask them not to take them, I know they are doing you a favour, but god forbid something happens

Original poster

Tropicalturnip · 10/02/2025 15:46

Also thanks so much for your detailed reply @BertieBotts so helpful to know the ins and outs and I feel a bit reassured about the middle being a safer spot in general! I have got that little booster on amazon and hopefully that could come in handy for future too x

OP posts:

Bearhunt468 · 10/02/2025 15:49

Can't your child sit in front seat with their car seat and the other parent sit in the back with the two car seats?

Original poster

Tropicalturnip · 10/02/2025 15:56

Bearhunt468 · 10/02/2025 15:49

Can't your child sit in front seat with their car seat and the other parent sit in the back with the two car seats?

No, I asked this and they said it's not big enough for an adult to squeeze in - there is a seatbelt there though. Tbf I have a massive car and even in that you have to lean forwards to fit in between the car seats.

OP posts:

Maddy70 · 10/02/2025 16:06

She will be fine if it's legal it's safe if you aren't comfortable find alternative childcare

nutbrownhare15 · 10/02/2025 16:12

In this situation if I had three kids to transport I'd put the oldest in the front seat in a car seat, and have the smallest adult sit in the middle at the back. I've sat in this position several times. Not that comfortable but fine.

BuildbyNumbere · 10/02/2025 23:57

NannyR · 10/02/2025 15:04

Is the car big enough to have one of the adults squeezed in between the two carseats in the back? Then the oldest child could go in the front seat in a carseat.

☝🏻 this … we used to do this.