To tell friend not to drive 4 yr old without car seat?

[Tropicalturnip]

My friend is doing me a huge favour by having my 2 DC (2 and 4) for the day in a couple of weeks, they plan to go out to an activity a car drive away.

Friend is looking after them with her partner along with their own young DC1, so they would need 3 car seats, which don't all fit in one car.
Friend told me she intends to sit my eldest in the middle with a seat belt, as it's legal to do so after she's checked the gov website etc.
(This is correct, which astounds me!)

This is just a one off journey but it's about half an hour there and half an hour back. I know children can go in taxis without a car seat - but they have 2 cars and if they drove separately they could have them all in a proper car seat.

AIBU to say I'd rather them go in 2 cars and obviously give them some money for petrol etc but I'd rather my DC be safe? Or am I being precious as it's just a one off and it's perfectly fine in a taxi etc?

Edited to add my eldest child is quite tall for their age if that makes a difference!

I bet you can … once she’s in she can just shove the seats over a bit, it’s only half an hour.

Have you seen the bubble bum car seats? I find they fit between 2 car seats but obviously depends on size of the car. Link here in case it helps:
amzn.eu/d/h395qqc

I just checked out the data and NCMD records 16 deaths of children under 5 over 3 years from UK as passengers in cars. This is less than 2 in a million kids. I couldn't see any info of whether these children had even been in child seats.

Basically very rare, I wouldn't lose sleep if taking reasonable steps.

If you put oldest child in the front with a car seat (airbags off obvs before I get a Mumsnet lecture) then an adult could sit in the back and all children are in a car seat. I’ve done this before when I had 3 that needed a car seat - although I was on my own so didn’t have to squeeze an adult in the back.

The belt won’t hold a 4yo. Your child will not be protected properly in case of an accident. It’s not safe.

Just cancel and look for other childcare.

when I had my third child we were told about this law by mamas and papas when I went to get a car seat fitted. My oldest was 6 so. Or as young as yours. They said not to be tempted by the car seat in the the front, that it’s actually safer in the middle seat of the back row without a car seat than being in the front seat with a car seat. I have frequently travelled with a younger child in the middle of two car seats and it worked out ok. I get that it’s concerning and seems alien, but personally I wouldn’t ask my friend to take two cars.

Just to clarify, some people have stated the " if it's legal it's safe," and that is certainly not the case. It's legal for example to put 2 yo forward facing... Doesn't make it safe!
Neck injuries are still going strong at his age so I understand OP.
We've got a booster at home for when we've got no other alternative (taxi to the airport, or taxying when abroad).
When we visit my parents in Spain, we've got no other option as to use a high back booster over there (which I'm not thrilled about).
But when in the UK, our 5 yo (who has a huge head!) will continue to go onto his ERF until car seat height allows, which I think is 125cm.

I'm not sure why people think that car seat safety is something to joke about :( ERFs actually make the difference between an alive or a dead child.

Personally I wouldn’t take the risk, and I’m surprised another parent is willing to allow it. I wouldn’t dream of it. How it is legal is beyond me.

I’m sorry but this is laughable. Smoking/Vaping/Alcohol/Jumping from an 5 story building, also all legal, not safe though are they. What a stupid comment.

If it was me I wouldn’t let my child go, even in a booster seat but I’m a rear face until 7/8yo parent. I’d suggest adult in back between 2 seats and another car seat properly fitted, air bags turned off in the front.

Yabu to expect them to take two cars

can you drive your dc yourself?

I would just send a booster for the 4yo, but it depends on the road type and I know some people fret about them. If you don't want a booster then you'll have to find alternative childcare unfortunately, you can't request childcare and then alter their plans.

A 4 year old should be rear facing so this sounds absolutely nuts to me. It just takes one accident and your child would go through that windscreen.

Can they not get public transport or an alternative way to get there for a day out?

The taxi rule is only really acceptable in emergencies and even then the child should be sat on your knee, they won't let you put them on a seat at that age!

No this isn't true. The standards are ridiculously low

I live in a big city with no car, I take ubers regularly with my 6 & 4 year olds without carseats. Have been doing since my youngest was 2. You sit them down and tell them to lift their arms up, and the seat belt sits under their arms. If they aren’t going on a motorway I would be fine for them to be without carseats.

You are absolutely not being unreasonable! There is no way I would let my children travel without a car seat.
I would tell them you are not happy with the seatbelt suggestion and if they aren’t happy to use two cars or for an adult to sit in the middle seat while your DC seat goes kn the front, then I would ask if they could do an activity which is a walking distance away.
I never understand when people say it’s a one off or a short distance. Accidents can happen anywhere.
Just because it is legal, doesn’t mean it is safe. The UK is way behind on car seat safety.

Absolute hard no from me. I would never, never let a four year old travel in a car without a proper high backed booster at the very least. I also wouldn't be asking them to take two cars, I would just find different childcare arrangements and be super nice to them but explain that you're not comfortable even though it's technically legal xx

If it's a 3-point seat belt then just maybe, if it's a lap belt absolutely not, no way. I know someone who was in a serious car accident age 12, wearing a lap belt. He was practically cut in two, all the way back to his vertebrae. They had to put his bowel, everything back together, and he spent a year in hospital in a back brace.

I agree with PP that an adult should squeeze between the car seats in the back and the 4-year-old goes on a booster in front.

If she thinks it's perfectly safe, she'll be happy putting her own child in the middle instead. She won't though
I've had DC4 in a taxi before on a short journey with no car seat but never in the middle, we were always told growing up not to sit in the middle if we could help it as it's so dangerous.
She could alternatively put one of the seats in the front with the airbag off and her DH sits in that middle seat. We had to do a car seat in the front once with a van when moving house.

I was going to suggest a Trunki Boostapak but I see you have already ordered the Bubblegum booster which does the same thing.

I don't think I would be hugely comfortable putting my 4yo in a backless booster for anything other than a short journey at low speeds (certainly not on A/M roads at 70mph). She is rear-facing in our car and we use a high back booster if getting lifts etc.

However, the backless booster is very handy, we use it all the time for our older child and his friends when lift/car sharing.

I would absolutely not be comfortable with this. When I’ve been your friend, we have taken two cars (what’s £2 extra in fuel vs a child’s life?) or I would put my own child in the middle and make sure the children I was looking after were seated securely.

That's good to know, thanks!

I'd suggest trying it before the day so you don't get caught out last minute if it doesn't fit.

That isn't true.

It might be legal, but it’s far from best practice. I didn’t take my 4yo in taxis without a car seat either. again, just because it’s legal doesn’t mean you should do it.

dd was still in a 5 point harness seat at that age and not remotely ready to transition to a booster seat.

As a parent. Don't allow them free access to an unmonitored high building or lack of car seat. But also don't expect a family to adapt to their needs while doing them a favour. Find an alternative