Page 9 | To say that prisons should be abolished altogether?

ThisAvidOchreEagle · 2025-02-09T12:29:16+00:00

Rehabilitation and community justice models work better than locking people away. AIBU to think prisons are outdated and ineffective?

username299 · 09/02/2025 15:40

ChowMoWan · 09/02/2025 15:22

I think that would be fine for non-violent offenders but do you really want serial killers, terrorists and child rapists on the street?

I'm not sure why people keep saying this; they already are. We have very few full life termers in the UK.

Nanny0gg · 09/02/2025 15:42

WearyAuldWumman · 09/02/2025 13:08

Would you care to explain what you mean by 'community justice', OP?

Stocks? Pillories? Stoning?

Whammyyammy · 09/02/2025 15:44

Yeah. Let's let murderers, rapists, terrorists, drug dealers etc all do a wicker weaving course then pump them back into a civilised community....

Scrabbelator · 09/02/2025 15:46

Sure, just let convicted murderers, rapists and paedophiles live freely among us. No matter how many convictions they have, don't take away their freedom. No matter how heinous their crime, let them live freely among us.

Brilliant idea. How could it possibly go wrong...

PinkSparklyPussyCat · 09/02/2025 15:47

username299 · 09/02/2025 15:40

I'm not sure why people keep saying this; they already are. We have very few full life termers in the UK.

Show quote history

I'd like to see more whole life tariffs. Why should someone who has murdered be allowed to live most of their life free?

IVFmumoftwo · 09/02/2025 15:48

You think Peter Sutcliffe could have been rehabilitated?

MaggieBsBoat · 09/02/2025 15:48

maudelovesharold · 09/02/2025 15:34

The op lit the blue touch paper and retired!

Love this, reminds me of. John Brunner novel.

partyplanningseason · 09/02/2025 15:49

It depends on the crime.

Women and especially mothers should not be locked up for non-violent crime.

The impact on mothers of having even short sentences is horrific - they often lose their jokes and custody of their DC. The same is not true for fathers - the DC typically stay with the mother and not much changes for the family.

I'd also say prison is outdated for drug possession, but you'd need decent treatment instead, much easier to access than currently.

But for dangerous, violent offenders yes they need to be removed from the community. Definitely including men who commit serious DV and coercive control on women and children. They really need to be locked up - what alternative is there?

MrsSkylerWhite · 09/02/2025 15:52

PinkSparklyPussyCat · Today 15:47

username299 · Today 15:40
I'm not sure why people keep saying this; they already are. We have very few full life termers in the UK.
Show quote history
I'd like to see more whole life tariffs. Why should someone who has murdered be allowed to live most of their life free

I’d go further. Probably controversial. Whilst I don’t agree with state sanctioned executions, I do think there’s a discussion to be had about those sentenced to life having the option to choose lethal injection themselves. Several recent, horrific cases spring to mind, where guilt was crystal clear.

MrsSkylerWhite · 09/02/2025 15:52

MrsSkylerWhite · Today 15:52

PinkSparklyPussyCat · Today 15:47
username299 · Today 15:40
I'm not sure why people keep saying this; they already are. We have very few full life termers in the UK.
**
I'd like to see more whole life tariffs. Why should someone who has murdered be allowed to live most of their life free

I’d go further. Probably controversial. Whilst I don’t agree with state sanctioned executions, I do think there’s a discussion to be had about those sentenced to life having the option to choose lethal injection themselves. Several recent, horrific cases spring to mind, where guilt was crystal clear.

GutsyShark · 09/02/2025 15:53

partyplanningseason · 09/02/2025 15:49

It depends on the crime.

Women and especially mothers should not be locked up for non-violent crime.

The impact on mothers of having even short sentences is horrific - they often lose their jokes and custody of their DC. The same is not true for fathers - the DC typically stay with the mother and not much changes for the family.

I'd also say prison is outdated for drug possession, but you'd need decent treatment instead, much easier to access than currently.

But for dangerous, violent offenders yes they need to be removed from the community. Definitely including men who commit serious DV and coercive control on women and children. They really need to be locked up - what alternative is there?

This is by far the most insane thing I have ever read on Mumsnet. Being a mother should give you immunity from prosecution? I can't think of a single issue that would arise from this policy.

And obviously it doesn't apply to fathers. Because equality is such an outdated idea.

AnAlpacaForChristmasPleaseSanta · 09/02/2025 15:55

Brilliant idea OP, there's a house 2 doors down from me for sale. I'll earmark it for Rose West 🙄.

MiniPumpkin · 09/02/2025 15:55

Yabu.

prison is needed for those who present a risk of serious harm

FKAT · 09/02/2025 15:55

GutsyShark · 09/02/2025 15:53

This is by far the most insane thing I have ever read on Mumsnet. Being a mother should give you immunity from prosecution? I can't think of a single issue that would arise from this policy.

And obviously it doesn't apply to fathers. Because equality is such an outdated idea.

Show quote history

You might want to clutch your pearls harder because it's actually the view of the prisoners minister and many senior people in the prison service. Except in very specific instances (West etc) there is very little rationale for imprisoning mothers. Women get far harsher sentencing than men as well.

Edit: Oh I just saw your post said 'immunity from prosecution' - that's not what the PP said. Learn to read.

MrsPeregrine · 09/02/2025 15:58

Yes, YABVVU. There would be absolutely no deterrent to serious crimes such as murder and rape and the numbers would rocket. Seriously, what planet are you living on?

username299 · 09/02/2025 16:00

MrsPeregrine · 09/02/2025 15:58

Yes, YABVVU. There would be absolutely no deterrent to serious crimes such as murder and rape and the numbers would rocket. Seriously, what planet are you living on?

There's no deterrent to rape now. We have a 1% conviction rate. What planet are you on?

somewhereinsuburbia · 09/02/2025 16:01

So much ignorance on this thread. The majority of prisoners have had shit lives, care leavers, survivors of abuse. If you put your son through what many of these young men have been through, add in a learning disability or poor impulse control, you get a criminal. The statistics on prisoners with undiagnosed learning disabilities or autism/ adhd are shocking. Of course it doesn't excuse what they have done but it adds context.
We can't get rid of prison. But we can improve outcomes for these kids before they end up with so few choices or such a bleak future that prison isn't a deterrent. If you are a black male, in care or with shit parents, who has been coerced into a gang to get protection, or because they'll rape your sister otherwise, and you have to go get money or drugs or you'll be killed or chased away from your home. Obviously prison doesn't sound that bad.
Societal reform would do more to reduce crime than any prison or punishment.
More support for parents, universal basic income, stopping institutional racism such as black teens being essentially written off from age 14 onwards, better jobs than we have now, better childcare and intensive outreach for parents we know are struggling. Better social care. Bring back sure start centres. Legalise drugs so there's less criminal activity. Make abortion easier to get. Teach more about sex education and coercive control in schools. Actually show kids prison stats and have ex- offenders in to speak. More mental health support in school.
Just not what we're doing now.
Funny how we only care about women prisoners. It's the men who I've worked with who have stuck with me more, in terms of tragic wastes of talent.

Alltheyearround · 09/02/2025 16:01

FKAT · 09/02/2025 15:55

You might want to clutch your pearls harder because it's actually the view of the prisoners minister and many senior people in the prison service. Except in very specific instances (West etc) there is very little rationale for imprisoning mothers. Women get far harsher sentencing than men as well.

Edit: Oh I just saw your post said 'immunity from prosecution' - that's not what the PP said. Learn to read.

Edited

Show quote history

Also we have to think about what happens to the children and the cost to them and to us overall (if they go into care their futures often are not looking good, outcomes are poor). With women offenders it is often more complex. Not saying they shouldn't have consequences but looking at the big picture is key.

somewhereinsuburbia · 09/02/2025 16:08

@Alltheyearround that's not been my experience at all. I've met women who have done very serious crimes, there is much more trauma informed, caring, rehabilitation focused work with female prisoners. Not saying that isn't correct. Many of these women have been victims throughout their lives. But so have many of the men, and they don't get that same level of support around trauma, attachment, mental health, missing their children etc.

ZoeCM · 09/02/2025 16:08

FKAT · 09/02/2025 14:50

Scandinavian countries are (to a greater extent than the UK at least) monocultural, very small populations, high tax and high standard of living with much greater equality. There is no comparison with the UK's infrastructure. (And for all our raving about Sweden, it has the highest reported rape incidence in Europe.)

Prison abolition is borne out of the 'blank slate' theory beloved of some left wingers. That crime is always an output of socialisation - specifically deprivation / lack of education and if we just made everyone prosperous, employed and engaged in society, it would disappear. While there is no doubt this is true to some extent in specific instances of property crime, it's a terrible idea to generalise more widely.

Starmer before the election actually said that extremism and radicalisation could be minimised by employment / housing / prospects. I mean, Bin Laden was the son of a billionaire and was there anyone more socially engaged and fulfillingly employed than Rolf Harris?

Edited

You've nailed it. If we invested much more money in early intervention, social services, mental health treatment and so on, then I certainly believe crime rates would fall... but they wouldn't disappear. People will still commit crimes because they're horrible. Sometimes it's nature rather than nurture.

Also, I don't believe rapists rape because of childhood trauma or social inequality. (I also believe the politically correct "rape is about power, not sex" myth has been debunked - it's about both). Rapists rape because they want sex with someone who doesn't want sex with them, and they're too scummy to care about the trauma they cause their victim. It really is that simple. Rapists are often rich, powerful men who had charmed upbringings.

Alltheyearround · 09/02/2025 16:16

somewhereinsuburbia · 09/02/2025 16:01

So much ignorance on this thread. The majority of prisoners have had shit lives, care leavers, survivors of abuse. If you put your son through what many of these young men have been through, add in a learning disability or poor impulse control, you get a criminal. The statistics on prisoners with undiagnosed learning disabilities or autism/ adhd are shocking. Of course it doesn't excuse what they have done but it adds context.
We can't get rid of prison. But we can improve outcomes for these kids before they end up with so few choices or such a bleak future that prison isn't a deterrent. If you are a black male, in care or with shit parents, who has been coerced into a gang to get protection, or because they'll rape your sister otherwise, and you have to go get money or drugs or you'll be killed or chased away from your home. Obviously prison doesn't sound that bad.
Societal reform would do more to reduce crime than any prison or punishment.
More support for parents, universal basic income, stopping institutional racism such as black teens being essentially written off from age 14 onwards, better jobs than we have now, better childcare and intensive outreach for parents we know are struggling. Better social care. Bring back sure start centres. Legalise drugs so there's less criminal activity. Make abortion easier to get. Teach more about sex education and coercive control in schools. Actually show kids prison stats and have ex- offenders in to speak. More mental health support in school.
Just not what we're doing now.
Funny how we only care about women prisoners. It's the men who I've worked with who have stuck with me more, in terms of tragic wastes of talent.

Prison population overwhelmingly male, so yes I agree.

I know it's the US and not here but watching one of the 'Death Row' series, it struck me how much the extreme violence (though not excusable) was a culmination of poverty and abuse in the killer's life. He so nearly escaped but let himself get dragged down. In the end, he couldn't quite outrun his past and his volcanic anger issue. He was a deeply damaged man. I know that some prisons here do have wings where people are effectively re-parented via therapeutic community. Hard work for all concerned but worth it if offenders are able to change how they react.

The dignity of the two sons of the victim (Pablo) is outstanding. Made me cry. We all have choices to make in how we deal with life.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p060lxmz/life-and-death-row-in-cold-blood?

Life and Death Row - In Cold Blood

A former US Marine, seven days from execution, meets the son he fathered on the run, giving him a will to live. His victim’s boys recall the impact of having their dad killed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p060lxmz/life-and-death-row-in-cold-blood

Raindropskeepfallinonmyhead · 09/02/2025 16:21

Yeah Sara Shariff's murdering father should be free to live his life.
Give your head a wobble op.

TeaAndTattoos · 09/02/2025 16:24

If you think it’s outdated then you can live next door to all the murderers, rapists and child killers if you want I’m sure the likes of Axel Rudakabana, Ian Huntley, Levi Bellfield and Roy whiting would all love to be out on the streets because all they need is rehabilitation and community justice models that will stop them from reoffending won’t it. Stop chatting absolute shite and give your head a damn good wobble. There is a reason people like them are locked up they are a danger to society they aren’t in prison because they are good people.

GutsyShark · 09/02/2025 16:24

FKAT · 09/02/2025 15:55

You might want to clutch your pearls harder because it's actually the view of the prisoners minister and many senior people in the prison service. Except in very specific instances (West etc) there is very little rationale for imprisoning mothers. Women get far harsher sentencing than men as well.

Edit: Oh I just saw your post said 'immunity from prosecution' - that's not what the PP said. Learn to read.

Edited

Show quote history

Then they're off their fucking heads too.

Editing to add that if you see my earlier post (if you haven't maybe you should learn to read!) where I say I think we send far too many people to prison.

But to single out mothers is bat shit crazy.

FKAT · 09/02/2025 16:27

somewhereinsuburbia · 09/02/2025 16:01

So much ignorance on this thread. The majority of prisoners have had shit lives, care leavers, survivors of abuse. If you put your son through what many of these young men have been through, add in a learning disability or poor impulse control, you get a criminal. The statistics on prisoners with undiagnosed learning disabilities or autism/ adhd are shocking. Of course it doesn't excuse what they have done but it adds context.
We can't get rid of prison. But we can improve outcomes for these kids before they end up with so few choices or such a bleak future that prison isn't a deterrent. If you are a black male, in care or with shit parents, who has been coerced into a gang to get protection, or because they'll rape your sister otherwise, and you have to go get money or drugs or you'll be killed or chased away from your home. Obviously prison doesn't sound that bad.
Societal reform would do more to reduce crime than any prison or punishment.
More support for parents, universal basic income, stopping institutional racism such as black teens being essentially written off from age 14 onwards, better jobs than we have now, better childcare and intensive outreach for parents we know are struggling. Better social care. Bring back sure start centres. Legalise drugs so there's less criminal activity. Make abortion easier to get. Teach more about sex education and coercive control in schools. Actually show kids prison stats and have ex- offenders in to speak. More mental health support in school.
Just not what we're doing now.
Funny how we only care about women prisoners. It's the men who I've worked with who have stuck with me more, in terms of tragic wastes of talent.

Daughter of a recidivist prisoner here - and a model 'non-violent' (HA HA) one at that. What do you find ignorant about my posts?

Working class communities are not rehab centres for damaged, violent men. That these men have had awful lives (and my father did too, no doubt) does not mean that non-custodial sentences are the right thing. What about the people who live around them? What about the women and children they abuse?