To say that prisons should be abolished altogether?

[ThisAvidOchreEagle]

Rehabilitation and community justice models work better than locking people away. AIBU to think prisons are outdated and ineffective?

That's interesting. I did one of my research methods modules with a criminal psychologist and one of our papers we discussed was about how stigma was a bar for pedophiles being properly reintegrated on release and therefore at higher risk of reoffending. It was very clear that our biggest concern needed to be the poor stigmatised pedophiles, and not the victims past and future. It boggles the mind what it going on in unis just now.

The Scandinavian country I live in has very very low re-offending, we both pay less tax here compared to the UK.

I agree

Ooh I agree ThisAvidO or at least we should aim for way more rehabilitation and alternatives as few people locked up as possible but looks like a minority opinion.

I think that would be fine for non-violent offenders but do you really want serial killers, terrorists and child rapists on the street?

Prisons actually keep prisoners safe. Back in the days before the state could afford to set up and run prisons, criminals were just put to death or taken round the back of a wattle and daub pig shack and quietly murdered. They couldn't afford to have those types of people around and wouldn't have kept them alive in a prison because it was a waste of food and manpower. Petty criminals would have received a good beating to persuade them to behave themselves. Some criminals would have escaped and gone on the run.

We don't do any of these things now, so people are sent to jail and get to continue living. Thus, criminals are kept safe.

Are you going to tell us how we deal with the extremely dangerous population of people who stab and murder children and the like?

Some people commit crimes for which they need to be punished by the deprivation of their liberty, or which are so heinous that the rest of the population needs to be protected from them.
I have known people who lost a loved one in a horrendous crime which made the news. The idea that the perpetrator just needed rehabilitation is for the birds.

Yes, I used to work with homeless people (council run hostel). The amount of people we had from prison was high. Like those from the armed forces, many were lost souls who struggled with life and were to an extent institutionalised. There was not nearly enough help for them to build and sustain a normal settled life with regular employment. Ditto for those with drug/alcohol and mental health issues. Add some of these factors together and many (men) were on a not so pleasant merry go round. Costing a lot. Prison is the tip of a social iceberg.

Of course, some people do have to detained for the safety of others, and to be accountable for their crimes. I think a lot could be done to effectively cut down on those for whom prison is a revolving door.

Really interesting to watch Parole (BBC), which shows the difficult decisions the parole board have to make. A fine balance between justified cynicism and trusting that people can (sometimes) change. Also have been watching Death Row (also BBC). Glad that we no longer go down that road. Even if sometimes I think it might be justified, in the very worst cases, I am still glad it was abolished.

Prison would need to be overhauled here, root and branch, and much better prevention and rehabilitation put in place. Even ensuring better education (so many illiterate and dyslexic prisoners) would help. This means more money and training in schools. I speak as a parent with a child with complex SEND (and someone still fighting the LA/school for any literacy provision whatsoever - DS is now 15 and has severe dyslexia) and as a dyslexia teacher.

If you are not literate how can you even fill in your Universal Credit journal or fill in a job application? For those with no support, it can mean higher odds of a descent into petty crime. We could have a smaller prison populations but we would need better safeguards against poverty and crime. Other countries have done it but I suspect it will be a long time coming in the UK, especially after 14 years of 'austerity' (well, for those who were't lining their pockets).

Presume you’re both relatively high earners, then. My understanding is that tax in most Scandinavian countries is a lot higher for average earners than the UK but higher earners pay similar / less.

Don’t know where you live, but looking at the calculators, I’d get about 10% less in my take-home pay for the same salary if I lived in Stockholm (picked as that’s where I found a calculator for first) - and I earn above average for the UK.

We do send far too many people to prison, particularly for short sentences which results in a higher crime rate rather than a lower one. It also costs tens of thousands of pounds per year to keep someone in prison. It would be interesting to see if it we were better off paying criminals decent salaries not to commit more crimes!

Problem is the Daily Mail reading lock them up and throw away the key brigade only want to hear about more people being sent to prison for longer terms, whether it improves the crime rate or not.

I suppose at the end of the day it depends on the extent to which you think prison should be punitive or rehabilitative!

“And for all our raving about Sweden, it has the highest reported rape incidence in Europe“

This is a good thing, rapists are more likely to be convicted, victims aren’t treated like criminals, both of things increase the likelihood of rape being reported, the definition of rape here is also different so it protects more people, the change in the definition of rape led to a 75% increase in the conviction rate, like everywhere conviction rates are far too low. But a rape victim here is more likely to receive justice (and will receive appropriate care) compared to the UK. I’m not sure anyone will ever genuinely have a good enough rape conviction rate.

Murderers, rapists, paedophiles, terrorists, repeat offending burglars (esp. armed ones), and arsonists all definitely all need to be kept under lock and key.

your life and job sounds similar to alot of my work and home life! I 100% agree with everything

A lot of people cannot be rehabilitated

You want men who have raped babies to be rehabilitated? Men who have tortured children?

Nah. Leave them where they are, thanks

I'm sure OP is being deliberately contentious.

However, I'm also sure that we should have a policy of 'prison as a last resort' for lots of offences, but definitely not those of violence. Approximately 20% of female prisoners are in for non-payment of fines relating to not paying for a TV licence - do we think that's right? I don't. I'd get rid of the bloody licence anyway, but until then some other means of community punishment should surely be possible.

And of course Rudikubana, Rose West, Valdo Colocane, Ian Huntly and all the rest of that category should stay behind bars for the rest of their lives. But they aren't typical prisoners, so let's not measure the usual con by them.

There are enough dangerous people roaming our streets as it is. We need more prisons and a more effective system. Yes, in principle rehabilitation is a positive thing which I support but in reality some people cannot be rehabilitated and go onto commit the most heinous crimes again. Would you want to live next door to them? Have your children near them? Work alongside them? If you genuinely think everyone can be rehabilitated then read the news about people who have continued to reoffend and the stories of people who have lost loved ones at their hands.

No we’re not, due to moving here we had to start on the bottom ladder in our industries, I’ve only been working just over a year. My tax rate varies a little but its from 29.1-31%, I get a very small rebate otherwise my total tax rate would be 32%.

Teenager? Silly? No critical thinking skills?

Laugh Out Loud.

The op lit the blue touch paper and retired!

You could

Shoplifting doesn't seem to get that much attention

And even if they can they are also initially still a danger to others.

Yes. Wrong post

But much lower crime now (apparently)

BTW I think it's barbaric so I'm not advocating it