How the term 'poverty' has changed

[Deeperthantheocean]

Just this really.

Poverty in my grandparents' age was 'be rich, a gangster, work hard or you die'.

This was so true, whole different era and real poverty from their times being born in the 1910s and the aftermath. Sadly my GF died so GM was alone bringing up 2 children and then adopting another as that's what what you did when members of the family were being abused. No benefits, only a council where you to practically beg for help and it was so looked down upon and gossip then was brutal.

So, a little 2 bedroom house, outhouse toilet, coal fire, no electricity. My GM worked all day and night... cleaning, making clothes and took in 2 male lodgers in the downstairs 'parlour', made breakfast and evening meals for them.

The 3 girls shared a double bed, GM got up at 4am every morning to bring in coal and make the fire before everyone else got up to go to work/ school. Then she went to work, physical cleaning work to the rich and snooty. The sad thing is she was she was so intelligent, gifted at creativity and music (she played the church organ with music she learnt from heart voluntarily) and sowed the most beautiful dresses. Also cakes.

Having rambled on a bit because this is deep to my heart hearing the stories, poverty was a case of just being able to survive, eat and have a roof. The DC were incredibly intelligent but had to to go to work aged 15 cand over all their wages for the family fund.

Poverty now has a different criteria, which of course it should as society has progressed. However aibu to compare the claim to poverty now to then? There is help, UC, recognition of SEN with DLa etc.

Sorry, but now those claiming poverty now wouldn't consider letting out a room, working all day and night, making clothes and baking just to survive.

Am I right? I wouldn't either as there has been so much to eradicate these hard times but I truly respect the hardship and feel so grateful for what we have now. Xx

This recent report from the Joseph Rowntree Foundation might be a helpful read for those posters asking questions

www.jrf.org.uk/uk-poverty-2025-the-essential-guide-to-understanding-poverty-in-the-uk

Because UC has to be managed online, even the street homeless have smartphones now.

Yes. OP does sound a bit nostalgic. Maybe she should move to India or something.

I also think what we consider now as normal has changed a lot- I remember in the 70s visiting my great aunt and uncle a lot - they had quite a decent house in a good area but still plugged irons etc into light fittings- weird or what - they also had an outside loo - thing was my uncle had a section manager job in a supermarket so not amazingly well paid, but my great aunt did zero work wise after getting married and they had no kids- she wasn't ill or anything - just did zero paid work - to me they seemed quite poor but not suprisingly if only one ever worked and not in a high earning job- no top ups then etc!

Times have changed

Did you mean this reply for someone else?

Internet access is pretty essential. You might not get it through work (we’re not allowed to use our work computers for personal internet use) and you might not have eg a library. How do people apply for benefits or jobs, look for cheap energy prices etc without internet? Some places don’t have a bank branch they can access. You might be working long hours and these things might not be open when you’re not working. Secondary Schools expect internet access at home. So so much of life is online. You will probably tell me you can exist without the internet but it’s harder.

OP, for your sake I really hope your circumstances don’t change and you and your children, if you have any, don’t have to confront the reality you clearly feel has been consigned to the undeserving

"People like the person you’ve replied to would argue that people should just go to the library, or use someone else’s phone/computer, even though the former has limited opening hours, or may no longer be open at all, and the latter is just degrading."

What bollocks. There's nothing degrading about sharing resources. Talk about snobbery.

@BettyBardMacDonald It is degrading if you had to constantly ask friends if you could use their phone or computer to do essential things. I can guarantee if you put a post on MN saying something like - my friend is poor, so she does not have a phone. But she keeps asking to use mine to update her Universal Credit journal, buy things, contact the council, and other admin. AIBU to think this is cheeky and she should just get her own phone?
Nearly everyone would say the friend was cheeky

No, a smartphone is an essential item. Yes, there are people out there that cope without one... but if you actually know them, they are relying on people around them that do have smartphones for their life admin.
My dad does not have a smartphone. He keeps being sent links from his GP that he can't access. So, my mum has to do his life admin for him.

But it costs a lot in ingredients, and the fuel energy to cook and does not last as long....

Flour, yeast and the electricity to run the oven would cost around 7 pounds, that bag of flour would make 2 and a half loaves, I can get 3 loaves from co-op for 3 that are half decent and edible, keep for the week and leaving me with enough to get a few cans of beans so basic packed lunches and 4 nights dinners sorted for the same

Because they prefer not to have the crap beaten out of them, their scant possessions stolen, or assaulted. Please don't assume that all homeless folks got there because of addictions or fecklessness, and I really hope you're never ever put in that position yourself.

Lol, so-called stress, oops smart meters show exactly how fast the credit disappears, for me to run my oven for an hour costs 2.70 the hob is slightly more.

I think if you read the post it explains that taking in lodgers historically was a very normal and common thing to do and probably solved the housing problems at that time. It is no longer seen as normal practice for some of the reasons you state but also because of the welfare state it no longer was necessary.
We often comment on women who never worked, letting out rooms to lodgers in the middle of the 20th century was a side hustle for many women. They were already looking after one man for nothing, why not take in paying lodgers and make a bit of money yourself. In fact in slightly better off households they were referred to as “paying guest”.Being a landlady was a career for many women.
I don’t think that OP is suggesting that we all rent out space in our houses, but it was incredibly common in all levels of society in the past.
It’s quite interesting that many pp find it so shocking and it puts them firmly in the younger generations who have no memories of the practice.
I remember Coronation Street in the 60s and 70s several of the fictitious households had lodgers. No one questioned it or thought it weird since it reflected real life in the working classes. There are still plenty of people who rent out rooms to other working people but maybe you don’t move in those circles.

My DS’s friend is buying a house to do up where they are students, he works for his dad in construction when not at uni so it’s a joint enterprise to get him on the property ladder. They will spend the summer renovating and move in next academic year. DS will be his lodger along with several others. Their rent will pay the mortgage. DS will probably spend his 20s either lodging with friends or renting off landlords. Or if lucky buying a property but letting out rooms. It’s just what young professionals do.

We live rurally where many people have annexes that they rent out on a commercial basis to earn extra income. I think that with the social mobility that lead to house ownership the working classes are very snobby about sharing their homes, since a generation or two ago it would have indicated that they needed extra money.

There are plenty of threads on Mn where people have suggested taking in a lodger to solve a financial problem. No one bats an eyelid if that person is a middle class divorcee who is struggling to pay the mortgage, but god forbid we suggest useful ways to ease the burden of poverty to the unfortunate. It’s almost like you don’t want them to climb out of the poverty trap.

This.

I don't think you both are talking about the same things as each other maybe.

In living memory it was common to have a lodger. It is still fairly common to have a lodger. I know lots of people with lodgers. It is maybe less common with young children in the house due to awareness of safeguarding risks. The thing is they are all renting out an entire room.

We have to go back a long time ago to find it was common for a family living in one room, to rent out a corner of that room and section it off with a curtain. It's not a useful way out of poverty. I very much doubt most landlords would allow a sublet of this nature. I know the people living in temporary accommodation like a hotel room would not be allowed to do this.

YABU. How do you "let out a room" if you don't own the house?

Poverty is relative. You can compare poverty now with poverty in the past. Equally, poverty in the UK is not the same as poverty in some parts of the world. In terms of social justice, though, I think we need to see poverty as a lack of the basics for a comfortable life as it is defined within a particular society or st a particular time, and by that standard, sadly, many people are in poverty in this rich country.

Yes, and those in housing poverty are often housed near dubious people in unsafe environments.
It's not a good reflection on our soceity.

My uncle has just had to get a smartphone (he has a landline and a mobile bought in circa 2006) because his hospital appts for his cancer are sent through by text and he has to click a link to see the letters. He was having to get the hospital to send them to his sister and he wanted his independence back - that is essential.

The modern equivalent is probably 'sofa surfing' and there is still plenty of that whether or not money changes hands and that includes families with children hosting friends or relatives just out of prison or psychiatric wards.

I work in primary schools across a county and poverty is very real and sometimes sounds like something from Victorian era stories. We have children with no winter coat, ill-fitting shoes, no tights and just a summer dress and cardigan. There are children we know who eat a school dinner on a Friday lunchtime and are not eating again until Monday lunchtime. I have had a child tell me that their mum wants to move out of their house of multiple occupancy because the child rolled off the landing, which was acting as their bedroom, and rolled down the stairs in the middle of the night. Another child was living with her parents in one room where they had one bed. Both parents had started working night shift and she was left alone all night with a downstairs neighbour (who the child didn’t know the name of) the only person in the house from 7pm - 5am. I was one of the ‘poor ones’ in my incredibly middle class school and had no idea what children were suffering on a daily basis - I thought all that was left in the past.
Not sure if anyone else has posted this but this is a good insight into poverty and what schools are coping with in some areas https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cr7e09471lyo

I am aware of what happened in the past and do not find the idea of lodgers shocking. But like I said a lot of broke families just live in one room mum dad and all the kids in one room where do you see a lodger fitting in there? Plus like I said the risk of said lodger sexually abusing the kids, no responsible parent lets a stranger live in their child's personal space. It being common in the past is meaningless, loads of kids got sexually abused in the past it just wasn't talked about.

No one bats an eyelid if it's a middle class divorcee because she presumably has a bigger house with a spare room and the kids have flown the nest. That makes a pretty big difference.

People fought to change that level of poverty. It was through the suffering of those eras we have developed support for our poorer or more vulnerable people.

It may not look the same but modern day poverty is just as hard for those experiencing it. We are in a different age, you would struggle to survive without the internet or a device that connects to it. You can’t even pay a car park fee without a phone in some places.

What you should be upset about is that we live in the 21st century and those holding power and obscene wealth are allowing poverty to continue. It's not a competition to see who had it harder.