How the term 'poverty' has changed

[Deeperthantheocean]

Just this really.

Poverty in my grandparents' age was 'be rich, a gangster, work hard or you die'.

This was so true, whole different era and real poverty from their times being born in the 1910s and the aftermath. Sadly my GF died so GM was alone bringing up 2 children and then adopting another as that's what what you did when members of the family were being abused. No benefits, only a council where you to practically beg for help and it was so looked down upon and gossip then was brutal.

So, a little 2 bedroom house, outhouse toilet, coal fire, no electricity. My GM worked all day and night... cleaning, making clothes and took in 2 male lodgers in the downstairs 'parlour', made breakfast and evening meals for them.

The 3 girls shared a double bed, GM got up at 4am every morning to bring in coal and make the fire before everyone else got up to go to work/ school. Then she went to work, physical cleaning work to the rich and snooty. The sad thing is she was she was so intelligent, gifted at creativity and music (she played the church organ with music she learnt from heart voluntarily) and sowed the most beautiful dresses. Also cakes.

Having rambled on a bit because this is deep to my heart hearing the stories, poverty was a case of just being able to survive, eat and have a roof. The DC were incredibly intelligent but had to to go to work aged 15 cand over all their wages for the family fund.

Poverty now has a different criteria, which of course it should as society has progressed. However aibu to compare the claim to poverty now to then? There is help, UC, recognition of SEN with DLa etc.

Sorry, but now those claiming poverty now wouldn't consider letting out a room, working all day and night, making clothes and baking just to survive.

Am I right? I wouldn't either as there has been so much to eradicate these hard times but I truly respect the hardship and feel so grateful for what we have now. Xx

What planet does someone have to be on to think mobile internet access is not a necessity?

I can only imagine anyone who thinks this is elderly, already has analogue systems set up for all their services, and rarely has a need to apply for or set up anything new. It just doesn’t make sense any other way.

During Covid you couldn’t even get into a cafe without scanning a bleeding QR code! And that was almost five years ago.

OP, I think these days the term “poverty” is relative. Most of us have grandparents who lived quite hard lives…. My grandmother had to walk across Hackney Marsh every day to get to work, work was hard, poorly paid…. In many ways the norm. My other set of grandparents grew up in the Work house….. and that I think was the mark of real poverty. I feel great great sadness when I think of them….. I also think of the sadness, of my grandmother giving me a dressing gown she knitted for Christmas, and me hating it because it was itchy….. at the time I didn’t know her background, but now,now I know she grew up in the workhouse, I understand how precious a gift like that dressing gown must’ve been…. And I feel guilty and sad. I suppose One could consider, that council emergency accommodation is a kind of 21st century Work house….. it’s overcrowded, it’s dirty, there are probably vermin. The only difference is., that the workhouse was kept clean, and relatively vermin free, by the huge amount of people whose daily job to earn food and their bed was to do those duties. But there is no getting away from the fact that lots of people live in relative poverty. Many sofa surf, because they cannot afford accommodation, some working people are homeless, because they have no one to sofa surf with. This should not be happening….. but a successive government have no grip on a life lived in poverty, a life where you fall through the nets for one reason or another. Politicians rarely understand domestic abuse, they really understand a child who runs away from home because she is abused there. Politicians might like to think they understand….. but they don’t. And this is why so many people live on benefits which keep them below the poverty line, including pensioners. This does not happen in countries like Switzerland, who citizens are cared for, treated with respect. Sadly, I think Britain is truly broken….. and I don’t know what the answer is. Even if I did, would it matter?

I think there is some misunderstanding over lodgers in the past. In the 19th century a lodger would be given a corner of a room with a sheet or blanket strung up to separate the space. There were no spare rooms to rent out. Just board and lodging and maybe you could pay extra for laundry. They basically were just another body in the living space that paid rent. The traditional boarding houses that my DF stayed in the mid 20th century were normal houses where the grown up family had mainly left leaving spare rooms to rent out. DF shared a small room with a friend but felt they had fallen on their feet because the landlady was a brilliant cook. Apparently she had a legendary temper though and often threatened her DH with an axe. She was always very friendly with her lodgers though.

Modern poverty has two elements to it imo - actual physical, material want and exclusion from society. If you have insufficient resources available to you and your family to fully access those aspects of society which most of us would reasonably take for granted (so WiFi, computer access, being able to visit friends and family, adequate housing, space for kids to do homework, spare cash to participate in and celebrate special occasions), then you are poor. It's not just about meeting the most basic needs, it's also about the family (adults and children) having access to sufficient resources so they are not excluded from participating in our civic and social life in a meaningful way.

For instance, if you don't have a fixed address to access services, this has an exclusionary effect.

What alternative is there to capitalism? As far I’m aware nothing else has ever worked.

Very true…

However, look at what is happening in USA where trumps is trying to get SEN support with no state finances if I got that right?

People have fought for what we have and we shouldn’t forget how it was. Yes the word’s meaning changed. That is good.

👌🏼

Yeap…

so true. We can complain but realistically, nothing else worked.

I don't think capitalism "works" more or less than many other ways. The idea is to keep adjusting and trying new things. (That or revolution, which most of us want to avoid, even if the outcome is successful.)

It absolutely is essential as explained several times already.

Yes, there's absolute and relative poverty. Absolute poverty still exists in some countries. Relative poverty is shit too, not being able to take a proper part in the your own society. Some might say it's easier when everyone is poor than being the poor person surrounded by others who have things.

I think rough sleeping has more to do with mental illness and addictions. These can be consequences of poverty, of course.

Not all though.

I agree. It was a genuine question, no other system has ever lasted (as far as I’m aware). I was not suggesting it’s perfect at all.

People like the person you’ve replied to would argue that people should just go to the library, or use someone else’s phone/computer, even though the former has limited opening hours, or may no longer be open at all, and the latter is just degrading.

Are there really people sleeping rough without any of these problems being refused by the hostels? For what reason? I knew the street homeless people where I used to live and they all had problems.

Some avoid the B &Bs even when its snowing, because of the other people there using drugs.

GutsyShark realistically, no alternative to capitalism at this time. But given that creating poverty is a feature not a bug, we need to manage this to reduce the level of human misery, not pretend we all have equal agency or opportunity.

Because they don't want to be tempted themselves because they're former addicts, isn't that right?
Or is it because of the behaviour?

Yes how do we judge “working?” I’d say the current state of the UK economy suggests the model could certainly be improved, at least.

And not all versions of capitalism are the same. For example both the US and Sweden are capitalist countries. But the US is at the extreme end of the capitalist spectrum, being a very low tax, low public services/support, low regulation economy. Whereas Sweden has high taxes but also better and more widely available public services and heavier regulation of industry.

The Swedish model results in a higher quality of life for the general population, but the US model arguably has more advantages for enterprise, innovation, individual freedoms etc (at least that’s what its supporters might say).

There are plenty of tweaks you can make even within capitalism to significantly change things for the better.

Not necessarily former addicts. Some start using drugs because they're sleeping outside not vice versa. I'm going mainly by what I've been told by people coming to a foodbank.

Am I missing something? Isn't this a good thing?

Yup no broke person has a spare room to rent out a lot of broke families all live in one small room together.
That aside what kind of advice is it to tell someone with kids to take a random stranger into their personal space?
That's exactly how kids get sexually abused.

Your average potential lodger willing to live in the corner of a broke families home is probably that down on their luck for a reason drugs, alcohol or just being a general scumbag. But sure people like op keep making these threads asking why broke people don't just take in lodgers 🙄 I'm sure the next big step will be asking why broke people don't just sell their kids because that's where this is going.

Most on MN think having kids should be only for the rich anyway. So yes I’m sure selling them to a nice affluent family would kill two birds with one stone in their view.

They probably wouldn't even think it necessary for it to be a nice affluent family, seeing as they already constantly recommend broke families take in a random lodger into their child's personal space. Why not sell them to the dodgy man down the road? How dare anyone have the temerity to complain about their financial situation if they haven't tried that first!!