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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors

1000 replies

Needmoresleep · 04/02/2025 09:18

Yes, you read it right!

At the end of their two foundation years (F1 & F2), young UK trained doctors are struggling to find work. They don’t want to go to Australia or NZ but for many this will be the only option. Seven or eight years study and work down the drain.
The UK supposedly has a shortage of doctors, so immigration rules have been amended to encourage overseas applicants. They then complete equally with those who are working in, or studied in the UK for both general entry level jobs (known informally as F3s) and for speciality training positions.

The average hard-working doctor does not stand much of a chance. Anecdotally even quite ordinary vacancies will attract hundreds if not thousands of on-line applications. The NHS does not keep statistics, but it appears that to keep numbers manageable many NHS Trusts will shut applications within a few hours. Tough for the junior doctor who is at work or sleeping off a night shift. The best from overseas will be very qualified with perhaps a decade of experience, and lots of additional bells and whistles, so it probably does not matter. They will score better so the chance of an interview for a young doctor who needs to build their own experience will be vanishingly low.

The expansion of medical school places, and allocation of some of these traditional entry level roles to Physician Associates is only exacerbating the problem.

Training positions are even more competitive. The Government has introduced a number of incentives to encourage applicants from overseas: exemptions from exams, guarantees on training and promises for British citizenship. Medical school places have been expanding without a parallel increase in training opportunities so bottlenecks would have happened anyway. In 2021 36% of new trainees were from medical schools outside the UK. In 2023 it was 41.5%. This trend is expected to be continuing, even accelerating.

A group of us have been on the higher education board since our DC were applying for medical school. They are now F2s spread across the country, working long hours for relatively little pay but enjoying the contribution they are making. None of them expect to get either a short term contract or a training position, so are applying to Australia or accepting that they will be reliant on zero hours NHS bank work covering staff absences.
As taxpayers we should be concerned that we are paying for medical schools, yet the NHS is not supporting their graduates into employment. We might also question why we are not giving priority to those already working in the NHS for the limited training slots. Doctors from elsewhere may be very good, but a significant proportion are then likely to leave to return home or to take up well paid private consultancy posts in either their home countries or in medical hubs like Dubai or Singapore.

Keir Starmer has said he will review sectors seeking labour from abroad to ensure that applications for the relevant visa routes, whether it’s the skilled worker route or the shortage occupation list will be balanced with expectations on training people here in our country. Wes Streeting seems to be refusing to answer questions on the topic. Whilst last week the BMA finally issued the following statement, albeit limited to training:
https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/bma-statement-on-speciality-training-application-bottlenecks

Any action will be too late for our DC. When they applied for medicine they did not realise that it would mean having to leave the country. The hope has to be that a way is found to retain those that follow and to allow our impressive young people to be able to return.

Press release icon

BMA statement on speciality training application bottlenecks - News and opinion - BMA

Statement from BMA chief officers.

https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/bma-statement-on-speciality-training-application-bottlenecks

OP posts:
Thread gallery
70
mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 20:53

It's just beautiful, grey and rocky

AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors
Wooleys · 09/02/2025 20:55

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 20:58

Again, let's admire its grey beauty.

AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors
Wooleys · 09/02/2025 21:05

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 21:06

It's beautiful. I find it more attractive every time I post.

AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors
Wooleys · 09/02/2025 21:08

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 21:08

Let's post those niche statistics again. Just for clarity

AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors
AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors
AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors
Wooleys · 09/02/2025 21:08

That would be an improvement for sure.

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 21:09

😂😂 here's some more niche statistics

AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors
AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors
AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors
mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 21:09

More ?

AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors
AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors
AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors
Wooleys · 09/02/2025 21:10

Although for those interested in an intelligent interpretation, people might want to refer back to the discussion on Higher Ed ('Ideal Uni') for Medicine').

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 21:10

NHSE keep providing the stats, I'll keep posting them.

AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors
AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors
mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 21:11

Meanwhile, this is still so wonderfully beautiful don't you think

AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors
Wooleys · 09/02/2025 21:12

So bizarre.

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 21:12

We have enough doctors. We have enough jobs for them. But the NHS chooses not to employ them.

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 21:12

Stunning.

AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors
mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 21:13

PS we are trending again 😁

OneMorePiece · 09/02/2025 21:15

Wooleys · 09/02/2025 20:45

Yes that's the poster I'm referring to.

I suppose not absolutely everyone is on MN all the time/ some people are busy/ not everyone pores over every single post and so may miss requests directed at them. Not sure you can infer anything whatsoever from that. Your comment sounds a bit loaded, as though takeittakeit is in the dock at the Old Bailey.

No worries. Just surprised @takeittakeit hasn't answered as @takeittakeit was so vocal before.

Putting aside issues of NHS recruitment and the interests of posters' DCs, surely it's best and in the interests of the general public including yourself to want the problems post Brexit to be fixed? Unless one has private medical care, it would be in the interests of every one to have a properly functioning NHS where issues of recruitment are resolved quickly so that waiting lists can be reduced and conditions treated in a timely manner.

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 21:20

Private doctors are all trained by ..,,, the NHS. In 5-10 years they'll be no private healthcare as they'll be so few doctors.

Self interest ? My own v lovely DD has a v highly paid job secured, in her chosen speciality already. Weirdly, the people most likely to benefit from this fight are the current F1s. Too late for our own kids. We are fighting for the future. I've spent too long supporting students to become doctors, from under privileged backgrounds, to not want things to get better.

OneMorePiece · 09/02/2025 21:22

OneMorePiece · 09/02/2025 21:15

No worries. Just surprised @takeittakeit hasn't answered as @takeittakeit was so vocal before.

Putting aside issues of NHS recruitment and the interests of posters' DCs, surely it's best and in the interests of the general public including yourself to want the problems post Brexit to be fixed? Unless one has private medical care, it would be in the interests of every one to have a properly functioning NHS where issues of recruitment are resolved quickly so that waiting lists can be reduced and conditions treated in a timely manner.

When I meant putting aside the posters' DC's interests, I was only trying to engage you, @Wooleys , in a different way to see if you can see what the issues of a failure to address the concerns of the posters would be.

Of course I still fully support the DCs who are the subject of this thread and all disadvantaged doctors.

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 21:25

@OneMorePiece we've tried to engage, but derailing this thread has been actively encouraged by a few. Hence all the rocks.

By the way, it's not just F2.

AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors
Wooleys · 09/02/2025 21:29

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 21:20

Private doctors are all trained by ..,,, the NHS. In 5-10 years they'll be no private healthcare as they'll be so few doctors.

Self interest ? My own v lovely DD has a v highly paid job secured, in her chosen speciality already. Weirdly, the people most likely to benefit from this fight are the current F1s. Too late for our own kids. We are fighting for the future. I've spent too long supporting students to become doctors, from under privileged backgrounds, to not want things to get better.

At 21.03 on the Medicine 2025 thread on Higher Ed you posted that your own DD was facing unemployment in August so I'm sure everyone will be really pleased to hear than an offer of a v highly paid training post in your DDs hoped for specialty has come through on a Sunday evening in the last seventeen minutes. It will give hope to all the other worried F2s who are still waiting and worrying.

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 21:36

It's back, by popular demand 😂

AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors
OneMorePiece · 09/02/2025 21:37

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 21:25

@OneMorePiece we've tried to engage, but derailing this thread has been actively encouraged by a few. Hence all the rocks.

By the way, it's not just F2.

Yes, since Wooley won't listen, I thought we should appeal to Wooley's concerns as a potential NHS user. If Wooley has private health care, maybe that could explain the resistance. Otherwise I don't know why Wooley is so resistant to what we are trying to say.

As Wooley was concerned about racist undertones, I thought we could appeal to Wooley that we want issues post Brexit to be fixed in the interests of the multi cultural society we live in.

Hoping Wooley understands our perspective and the need to stop denying these issues which are causing the problem with NHS recruitment and problems to NHS staff already working here including your DCs. We are living in dangerous times and we can't let issues divide us so the issues relating to the points based immigration system need to be addressed asap.

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 21:37

And dearest @Wooleys, I have said many times my DD is off Down Under. Do keep up.

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