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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors

1000 replies

Needmoresleep · 04/02/2025 09:18

Yes, you read it right!

At the end of their two foundation years (F1 & F2), young UK trained doctors are struggling to find work. They don’t want to go to Australia or NZ but for many this will be the only option. Seven or eight years study and work down the drain.
The UK supposedly has a shortage of doctors, so immigration rules have been amended to encourage overseas applicants. They then complete equally with those who are working in, or studied in the UK for both general entry level jobs (known informally as F3s) and for speciality training positions.

The average hard-working doctor does not stand much of a chance. Anecdotally even quite ordinary vacancies will attract hundreds if not thousands of on-line applications. The NHS does not keep statistics, but it appears that to keep numbers manageable many NHS Trusts will shut applications within a few hours. Tough for the junior doctor who is at work or sleeping off a night shift. The best from overseas will be very qualified with perhaps a decade of experience, and lots of additional bells and whistles, so it probably does not matter. They will score better so the chance of an interview for a young doctor who needs to build their own experience will be vanishingly low.

The expansion of medical school places, and allocation of some of these traditional entry level roles to Physician Associates is only exacerbating the problem.

Training positions are even more competitive. The Government has introduced a number of incentives to encourage applicants from overseas: exemptions from exams, guarantees on training and promises for British citizenship. Medical school places have been expanding without a parallel increase in training opportunities so bottlenecks would have happened anyway. In 2021 36% of new trainees were from medical schools outside the UK. In 2023 it was 41.5%. This trend is expected to be continuing, even accelerating.

A group of us have been on the higher education board since our DC were applying for medical school. They are now F2s spread across the country, working long hours for relatively little pay but enjoying the contribution they are making. None of them expect to get either a short term contract or a training position, so are applying to Australia or accepting that they will be reliant on zero hours NHS bank work covering staff absences.
As taxpayers we should be concerned that we are paying for medical schools, yet the NHS is not supporting their graduates into employment. We might also question why we are not giving priority to those already working in the NHS for the limited training slots. Doctors from elsewhere may be very good, but a significant proportion are then likely to leave to return home or to take up well paid private consultancy posts in either their home countries or in medical hubs like Dubai or Singapore.

Keir Starmer has said he will review sectors seeking labour from abroad to ensure that applications for the relevant visa routes, whether it’s the skilled worker route or the shortage occupation list will be balanced with expectations on training people here in our country. Wes Streeting seems to be refusing to answer questions on the topic. Whilst last week the BMA finally issued the following statement, albeit limited to training:
https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/bma-statement-on-speciality-training-application-bottlenecks

Any action will be too late for our DC. When they applied for medicine they did not realise that it would mean having to leave the country. The hope has to be that a way is found to retain those that follow and to allow our impressive young people to be able to return.

Press release icon

BMA statement on speciality training application bottlenecks - News and opinion - BMA

Statement from BMA chief officers.

https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/bma-statement-on-speciality-training-application-bottlenecks

OP posts:
Thread gallery
70
mumsneedwine · 07/02/2025 19:33

@maxplanck at least IT people have a choice if employers. Nurses and doctors have 1.

mumsneedwine · 07/02/2025 19:34

The number of applicants to EM medicine doubled this year.

mumsneedwine · 07/02/2025 19:35

I really feel for any F1s. Those graphs will continue in an exponential fashion next year. You'll need 600+ on MSRA to even get an interview !!

CherubEarrings · 07/02/2025 19:36

takeittakeit · 07/02/2025 19:11

ALl training jobs in the UK have been open to international applicants for forever - this is not new. Infact we are seeing less EU grads.

Foundation training is cosseted - hours rightly restricted, lot of the roles supernumerary and a lot of supervision and you know your jobs and pay for 2 years,
. The next step is stressful and anyone ca apply there are no barrriers, some poeple get a job straight away and others have to take a non training numbered job for 6 -12 months. Does not mean they do ot pogress just do ti iin a different way.

Am sorry my experience as a junior doctor, middle grade and ow a consultant who interviews employs read applications and appoints on a local, regional and antional level means I know nothing -not sure how much experience one needs to have to point out that much o what is eing said is not quite true

Not sure about this post.

mumsneedwine · 07/02/2025 19:40

@takeittakeit ah so you're not a doctor. How is a 72 hour week, nights and bring the only doctor in a ward 'cosseted' positions ? No clue what jobs you're describing as not one my DD has had. V v few are supernumerary in F1 and none in F2. So out of touch if you are a medic.

Wooleys · 07/02/2025 19:41

mumsneedwine · 07/02/2025 19:35

I really feel for any F1s. Those graphs will continue in an exponential fashion next year. You'll need 600+ on MSRA to even get an interview !!

I think some F1s are pretty level headed and will just get on with the applications and not spend a year getting sucked into pessimism and drama. Hopefully the system will sift the best ones out.

mumsneedwine · 07/02/2025 19:42

@takeittakeit can you read graphs ? Do you see the issue ? No IMGs have not been allowed to get jobs in the same level as UK based staff.

Again, there is no reason to make any of this up. Wish it wasn't true.

mumsneedwine · 07/02/2025 19:43

@Wooleys oh you are sweet. Yes it really works like that 😂. Good luck for yours. You have a lot to learn

Wooleys · 07/02/2025 19:44

So far my family's laid back approach has paid dividends but I appreciate your thoughts.

Don't you get exhausted by living at such a high level all of the time?

Surely we're at the stage where you really should share your hyper concern on your medical school application threads? The silence seems so at odds with the emotion you display elsewhere.

CherubEarrings · 07/02/2025 19:45

mumsneedwine · 07/02/2025 19:40

@takeittakeit ah so you're not a doctor. How is a 72 hour week, nights and bring the only doctor in a ward 'cosseted' positions ? No clue what jobs you're describing as not one my DD has had. V v few are supernumerary in F1 and none in F2. So out of touch if you are a medic.

Thought that poster was unlikely to be a doctor from how it was written and content.

mumsneedwine · 07/02/2025 19:51

@CherubEarrings there are some strange people who feel the need to post utter rubbish.

DD and colleagues are at an awards thing tonight being presented with awards for excellence. They are thoroughly enjoying reading some of these posts. 3 are off back to the wards at 9pm as on night shifts. All are amazing doctors but Australia has offered them jobs and the NHS hasn't.

Look at the graphs. It's not very complicated why there's an issue.

Wooleys · 07/02/2025 19:55

So your DD is presumably now hopeful that she's about to get a training post mumsneedwine?

Wooleys · 07/02/2025 19:57

Australia? You said NZ last time? But before that you said Australia? Has she lined up jobs in both places for just in case the offer isn't confirmed? Confused.

HermioneHerman · 07/02/2025 20:04

The irony of someone literally hanging on a thread for days, being highly critical of almost every post, displaying a complete lack of any empathy whilst being absolutely convinced that only their view is correct, and then calling themselves laid-back is frankly astonishing.

mumsneedwine · 07/02/2025 20:05

Wow it's boring. Australia and NZ are options of choice for UK doctors. Please go away. Come back next year when yours is an F2 and you know what you're talking about.

Wooleys · 07/02/2025 20:05

I'm certainly laid back as a parent HermioneHerman, take it or leave it - not bothered :)

mumsneedwine · 07/02/2025 20:06

@HermioneHerman some people need to do some of that redid ting that the doctors gave to do 😂

mumsneedwine · 07/02/2025 20:06

Reflection !

Wooleys · 07/02/2025 20:08

mumsneedwine · 07/02/2025 20:05

Wow it's boring. Australia and NZ are options of choice for UK doctors. Please go away. Come back next year when yours is an F2 and you know what you're talking about.

I have one who's older than yours, but not by anything of statistical significance.

I just wondered if you knew where your DD had her job fixed up since one post you said job fixed for Aus, then it was NZ, now it's Aus again.

But hopefully we'll hear soon that she has a training post in the UK so she can let all those other jobs go.

Wooleys · 07/02/2025 20:12

mumsneedwine massively excessive doses of drama equally aren't what the doctor needs/ ordered.

HermioneHerman · 07/02/2025 20:13

Wooleys · 07/02/2025 20:05

I'm certainly laid back as a parent HermioneHerman, take it or leave it - not bothered :)

Not bothered? Not buying it or why on earth are you still here? I deliberately hadn't got involved with all your goading because it was so blatant and frankly dull but you're fooling no one with all the laid-back, not bothered schtick. Enjoy shouting into the wind.

mumsneedwine · 07/02/2025 20:13

I will keep reposting these so easy to read for those interested in the reality

AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors
AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors
AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors
mumsneedwine · 07/02/2025 20:14

Clear enough ?

AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors
AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors
mumsneedwine · 07/02/2025 20:15

@Wooleys I feel v flattered I live so rent free in your head.

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