AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors

[Needmoresleep]

Yes, you read it right!

At the end of their two foundation years (F1 & F2), young UK trained doctors are struggling to find work. They don’t want to go to Australia or NZ but for many this will be the only option. Seven or eight years study and work down the drain.
The UK supposedly has a shortage of doctors, so immigration rules have been amended to encourage overseas applicants. They then complete equally with those who are working in, or studied in the UK for both general entry level jobs (known informally as F3s) and for speciality training positions.

The average hard-working doctor does not stand much of a chance. Anecdotally even quite ordinary vacancies will attract hundreds if not thousands of on-line applications. The NHS does not keep statistics, but it appears that to keep numbers manageable many NHS Trusts will shut applications within a few hours. Tough for the junior doctor who is at work or sleeping off a night shift. The best from overseas will be very qualified with perhaps a decade of experience, and lots of additional bells and whistles, so it probably does not matter. They will score better so the chance of an interview for a young doctor who needs to build their own experience will be vanishingly low.

The expansion of medical school places, and allocation of some of these traditional entry level roles to Physician Associates is only exacerbating the problem.

Training positions are even more competitive. The Government has introduced a number of incentives to encourage applicants from overseas: exemptions from exams, guarantees on training and promises for British citizenship. Medical school places have been expanding without a parallel increase in training opportunities so bottlenecks would have happened anyway. In 2021 36% of new trainees were from medical schools outside the UK. In 2023 it was 41.5%. This trend is expected to be continuing, even accelerating.

A group of us have been on the higher education board since our DC were applying for medical school. They are now F2s spread across the country, working long hours for relatively little pay but enjoying the contribution they are making. None of them expect to get either a short term contract or a training position, so are applying to Australia or accepting that they will be reliant on zero hours NHS bank work covering staff absences.
As taxpayers we should be concerned that we are paying for medical schools, yet the NHS is not supporting their graduates into employment. We might also question why we are not giving priority to those already working in the NHS for the limited training slots. Doctors from elsewhere may be very good, but a significant proportion are then likely to leave to return home or to take up well paid private consultancy posts in either their home countries or in medical hubs like Dubai or Singapore.

Keir Starmer has said he will review sectors seeking labour from abroad to ensure that applications for the relevant visa routes, whether it’s the skilled worker route or the shortage occupation list will be balanced with expectations on training people here in our country. Wes Streeting seems to be refusing to answer questions on the topic. Whilst last week the BMA finally issued the following statement, albeit limited to training:
https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/bma-statement-on-speciality-training-application-bottlenecks

Any action will be too late for our DC. When they applied for medicine they did not realise that it would mean having to leave the country. The hope has to be that a way is found to retain those that follow and to allow our impressive young people to be able to return.

Not against IMGs already here. It's not a battle between UK IMGs and UK medical grads.

It's a concern that recruiting extra new IMGs from abroad at the current rate is disproportionate given the current rising level of unemployment of UK trained medical graduates and UK IMGs.

The recruitment of IMGs in other countries is kept in check, monitored and is limited according to need.

We just want the issue to be addressed and balance to be restored by calling for priority being given to existing UK medics. IMGs already here are valued but there are new ones from abroad being fasttracked or have PLAB exemptions and this not fair on others applying within the UK.

This is an urgent call to reinstate the Resident Labour Market Test or similar as it's probably the way forward to address this issue.

Not doing anything about this problem is a risk to social cohesion if the issue becomes divisive.

It might be difficult for others who are not being disadvantaged or who are outside the UK like Forgotmyunagain to understand these issues as they aren't the ones battling the barriers to securing the posts. They are not the ones experiencing the stress of uncertainty and the threat of unemployment.

I think I have made it very clear in my posts that I do think that the current situation is very unfair – you have 25-year-old British graduates competing for SHO posts with 40-year-old IMGs, who naturally would have more theatre time, publications etc, and therefore csn gain points. The issue with PLAB exams, CREST sign offs (getting them done in the country of origin) is also unfair, since there is no moderation. I believe that the BMA has been raising concerns about this now.

A petition/protest is certainly needed, and is long overdue. My point is that, while a petition might gain public traction with the ‘foreign doctors are inept’ angle, it is likely to face resistance from the people within the NHS that are driving these recruitment drives, who will come up cases of how IMGs are improving the system. IMGs might lack an understanding of cultural norms, but they are unlikely to lack clinical and surgical knowledge, since they come with more experience.

Which is why it might be useful to have the views of a relative outsider. You might believe I do not understand the issues because I have not faced them first-hand – though I do fully sympathize with you, the graduates and the parents of these graduates that are forced to see them struggle unfairly. But you might also want to see a logical way to carry this forward, rather than let emotions gain an upper hand (and yes, I also understand this is very hard - but is essential nevertheless, as in any battle).

I think we should priories jobs and career progression for our own. We spend tens of thousands training them and telling youngsters medicine is a worthwhile profession. Recruitment from overseas should only take place if we can’t fill a training post.

Forgotmyunagain, you have misunderstood. No one here thinks all 'foreign doctors are inept'. There is an IMG explosion after the RLMT was abolished post-Brexit.

Being outside the UK, it's hard for you to understand UK issues and especially how young people have been disadvantaged. There is the need to right the wrongs for their sake. Since we live in this country, we don't want these issues to stoke further division.

It's disgusting that our young people don't even get a bursary any more and have to pay expensive fees to study and do loads of free work on wards.

They deserve the jobs not people from overseas

I haven’t caught up in a few days on this thread but it’s in the Telegraph right now!!

”Streeting attacks NHS reliance on foreign doctors”!!

The first lot of jobs (unnumbered) were always open to IMGs hence PLAB.
I only understand that some of the hurdles IMGs have faced previously have been relaxed.
It’s training numbers which have recently been available.
Correct if I am wrong or totally misunderstanding.

And as a result we have not enough plumbers painters brickies etc.

We need to ensure our citizens have good opportunities.

Health Secretary pledges to boost ‘home-grown talent’ as data show medics trained overseas coming to UK in record numbers.

i can’t attach the article but google it!! 👍

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/07/wes-streeting-attacks-nhs-over-reliance-on-foreign-doctors/

For some reason it was not hidden behind a pay wall.

Just read it - doesn’t really address the issues from this thread. If anything h it might muddy the waters.

it’s more of bashing IMGs rather than highlighting the issues for domestic medics. Another Telegraph article today from Merion something implied the shortages are because UK graduates are leaving for Oz and NZ to seek a better life and wages not because the pathway is broken.

a quote:

Dr Latifa Patel, who chairs the British Medical Association representative body, said: “Years of irresponsible workforce planning mean that the UK does not train enough doctors to meet the ever-growing needs of the population.”

ALl training jobs in the UK have been open to international applicants for forever - this is not new. Infact we are seeing less EU grads.

Foundation training is cosseted - hours rightly restricted, lot of the roles supernumerary and a lot of supervision and you know your jobs and pay for 2 years,
. The next step is stressful and anyone ca apply there are no barrriers, some poeple get a job straight away and others have to take a non training numbered job for 6 -12 months. Does not mean they do ot pogress just do ti iin a different way.

Am sorry my experience as a junior doctor, middle grade and ow a consultant who interviews employs read applications and appoints on a local, regional and antional level means I know nothing -not sure how much experience one needs to have to point out that much o what is eing said is not quite true

I do hope I have misunderstood then, @OneMorePiece . I have been reading the full thread - and while there have been many measured posts (including yours), there also have been posts commenting on ‘inexperienced’ IMGs, ‘dodgy journals’, unable to speak English and so on (perhaps to be expected, given the open nature of this particular sub-forum). I am merely reiterating that, more often than not, this is not the case.

Again, I do sympathize with the unfairness you are facing – a person need not always lack empathy or understanding because they are out of the country.

I wish you and all graduates and parents all the very best with your effort. I am glad the news is making it to the wider media and hope things work out soon, in time for the current cohort of FY students. Like you, I too would hate to see division in the NHS, all the more so because I do have friends and relatives that are immigrants working in UK healthcare, and would be adversely impacted by the toxicity.

Thanks for the reply. Interesting to read what you say about what you perceive to be the easily manipulated points system. Do you think lots of people who write research papers just add on fake authors to augment the latter's points? You also seem to think the SJT is flawed. Can you tell me why you think this is deficient too?

I happen to be a medic mum but it's slightly diminishing to define me merely as that. I don't think I'm denying reality. I was definitely impressed by the dismantling of the statistics by a seasoned consultant on the thread referred to by others ('Ideal Uni for Medicine'. Hugely derailed to accommodate this issue about IMGs but Needmoresleep said that that was ok, that MN threads often meander...). The seasoned consultant's analysis definitely damped down the case for high drama. Perhaps this consultant can't interpret statistics usefully, but she was persuasive as far as I was concerned.

That said, I fully understand the concern of other mothers of medics or indeed fathers. But where all the most competitive specialties are overwhelmingly filled by UK graduates and where IMGs appear to be filling unpopular gaps and most definitely when calling Reform in aid is suggested - then yes, I will put forward a contrary view and not worry too much about being shouted down. Especially by those who can't spell.

If people don't like contrary opinion then please don't start threads in AIBU. Reserve them to a safe space.

My older medic DC is either your peer or slightly senior - you don't say what stage you're at exactly and obviously there's no obligation. But there's no reason to believe that my own DC is not at least as well informed as you are. I also have a current F1.

As far as name changing goes, that's completely within the MN guidelines. Posters change names for all sorts of reasons including privacy, creepy stalking etc etc. My understanding is that other posters are not allowed to call people out for name changing. As an explanation perhaps I could remind posters on this thread that Marianne Faithfull died on 30th January and I felt uncomfortable with continuing to use the name of her iconic song as a username. I'm astonished that no-one thought of that simple answer before congratulating themselves for superb detective work.

35,000 people applied for speciality training this year - this is individuals. It was 19,000 2 years ago. The number of UK graduates accounts for an extra 3,000 (& some if them are re applicants from last year who couldn't get in).

No one is making this up or exaggerating. Why would we ?What do we have to gain ?

We see first hand what if going on with a whole cohort of doctors. It's so v v sad.

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Still won't attach photos

Ooh yes it will !

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Competition remained the same ? Really.

@takeittakeit , I'm certain that no one is saying that your experience isn't valid but you must surely be hearing some of this on the ground as a consultant, especially in London?

You only need a quick glance at MedReddit to see the see the desperate time that some people are having... competition ratios and minimum cutoff scores for paeds, IMT and CST have all rocketed this year and loads of strong candidates with impressive portfolios aren't even making it to interview. It's very real and extremely alarming for those of us a few years behind. I know Reddit will be a bit of an echo chamber of misery sometimes and doesn't show the whole picture, but the statistics are out there and show what is happening clearly.

If you're saying there are actually trust grade jobs and surgical jobs no less going begging in London (sorry if I got that wrong but didn't sound like NTN roles?) then it sounds like there is something weird going on with the recruitment process somehow or are they being advertised before people know if they've met the cutoffs for CST maybe? There's of course no excuse for no-shows and rudeness but there are definitely definitely F2/3 level doctors out there really struggling, what a shame they don't seem to have seen the adverts or the whatever else has happened. Maybe the super impressive people are getting the interviews but keeping their options open for other things, who knows.

I do also wonder if some are worried about the 2 year experience rule and having to go ST3/CESR/CRHEST route so don't apply unless they are sure it's their most realistic option? Either way, the issues raised in this thread are very real and being talked about constantly in my (London) medical school circles.

Not just doctors. Newly qualified nurses are struggling to find jobs as trusts prefer to hire international nurses who have more experience. My old ward manager was constantly receiving emails regarding jobs from the other side of the world. None of these people were sponsored so didn’t have a cat in hells chance.
Equally in the IT field graduates are struggling to compete with international applicants or work is being offshored to India.

Yes, it's all just the same. Nothing to see here