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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors

1000 replies

Needmoresleep · 04/02/2025 09:18

Yes, you read it right!

At the end of their two foundation years (F1 & F2), young UK trained doctors are struggling to find work. They don’t want to go to Australia or NZ but for many this will be the only option. Seven or eight years study and work down the drain.
The UK supposedly has a shortage of doctors, so immigration rules have been amended to encourage overseas applicants. They then complete equally with those who are working in, or studied in the UK for both general entry level jobs (known informally as F3s) and for speciality training positions.

The average hard-working doctor does not stand much of a chance. Anecdotally even quite ordinary vacancies will attract hundreds if not thousands of on-line applications. The NHS does not keep statistics, but it appears that to keep numbers manageable many NHS Trusts will shut applications within a few hours. Tough for the junior doctor who is at work or sleeping off a night shift. The best from overseas will be very qualified with perhaps a decade of experience, and lots of additional bells and whistles, so it probably does not matter. They will score better so the chance of an interview for a young doctor who needs to build their own experience will be vanishingly low.

The expansion of medical school places, and allocation of some of these traditional entry level roles to Physician Associates is only exacerbating the problem.

Training positions are even more competitive. The Government has introduced a number of incentives to encourage applicants from overseas: exemptions from exams, guarantees on training and promises for British citizenship. Medical school places have been expanding without a parallel increase in training opportunities so bottlenecks would have happened anyway. In 2021 36% of new trainees were from medical schools outside the UK. In 2023 it was 41.5%. This trend is expected to be continuing, even accelerating.

A group of us have been on the higher education board since our DC were applying for medical school. They are now F2s spread across the country, working long hours for relatively little pay but enjoying the contribution they are making. None of them expect to get either a short term contract or a training position, so are applying to Australia or accepting that they will be reliant on zero hours NHS bank work covering staff absences.
As taxpayers we should be concerned that we are paying for medical schools, yet the NHS is not supporting their graduates into employment. We might also question why we are not giving priority to those already working in the NHS for the limited training slots. Doctors from elsewhere may be very good, but a significant proportion are then likely to leave to return home or to take up well paid private consultancy posts in either their home countries or in medical hubs like Dubai or Singapore.

Keir Starmer has said he will review sectors seeking labour from abroad to ensure that applications for the relevant visa routes, whether it’s the skilled worker route or the shortage occupation list will be balanced with expectations on training people here in our country. Wes Streeting seems to be refusing to answer questions on the topic. Whilst last week the BMA finally issued the following statement, albeit limited to training:
https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/bma-statement-on-speciality-training-application-bottlenecks

Any action will be too late for our DC. When they applied for medicine they did not realise that it would mean having to leave the country. The hope has to be that a way is found to retain those that follow and to allow our impressive young people to be able to return.

Press release icon

BMA statement on speciality training application bottlenecks - News and opinion - BMA

Statement from BMA chief officers.

https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/bma-statement-on-speciality-training-application-bottlenecks

OP posts:
Thread gallery
70
mumsneedwine · 06/02/2025 19:14

Doctors have one employer, every other profession does not.

Wooleys · 06/02/2025 19:14

mumsneedwine · 06/02/2025 19:06

@Wooleys why is it farcical ? Well the MSRA has 2 questions on Obs/Gynae yet it's the only thing used for interview selection. Others are the same . Points for other specialities are based on things that most F2s can't have at that stage of their lives - so jobs meant for them become unavailable to them.

And you must know every doctor's views on SJT exams if you have a doctor in the family. They do a lot of them (UCAT, Foundation exam, MSRA).

Two doctors in the family. One knew what was required to progress so ticked as many boxes as they could, the other isn't quite there yet but also savvy and capable of immensely hard work so I'm not overly concerned about them either. That one also has an additional degree for points, which helps, just as OP's DD has those extra points in the bag already.

mumsneedwine · 06/02/2025 19:15

@Wooleys assume you think your DS should just leave medicine if he can't get a consultant job ?

mumsneedwine · 06/02/2025 19:16

@Wooleys you're really not listening. Things have changed since your family members went through this. But good to know you'll be happy for yours to just leave and do something else

mumsneedwine · 06/02/2025 19:17

@Wooleys actually you are rude. You insinuate that all the young people worried about a job don't work hard and are not capable. Rude, patronising and completely clueless

Wooleys · 06/02/2025 19:18

mumsneedwine · 06/02/2025 19:15

@Wooleys assume you think your DS should just leave medicine if he can't get a consultant job ?

I think my DC loves their job enough to continue at below consultant level on that level of pay. I've no idea because what's the point when the issue is several years away.

Wooleys · 06/02/2025 19:20

mumsneedwine · 06/02/2025 19:17

@Wooleys actually you are rude. You insinuate that all the young people worried about a job don't work hard and are not capable. Rude, patronising and completely clueless

I'm not in the least rude compared to people who seem to think that the only people with valid dreams are medics. I'm standing up for all the zillions of other young people who you minimise, by implication.

mumsneedwine · 06/02/2025 19:20

@Wooleys do you not understand this is not how it works. His training will end, he then won't have a job. And there are not many jobs at that level as they are filled by the following years trainees.

mumsneedwine · 06/02/2025 19:22

@Wooleys right, obviously only your children are hard working and capable. Everybody else's are lazy wasters. Most of us have other children who are not doctors so we are well aware that it's a tough world. This thread is about doctors. And they gave one employer. No one else does

Wooleys · 06/02/2025 19:22

Well that's fine. Cross that bridge when it comes rather than being way over the top on social media.

My DC will be fine. He's incredibly capable. Perhaps he'd do international charity work. Lots of options.

CherubEarrings · 06/02/2025 19:24

Wooleys · 06/02/2025 19:20

I'm not in the least rude compared to people who seem to think that the only people with valid dreams are medics. I'm standing up for all the zillions of other young people who you minimise, by implication.

This is a thread about doctors. If you do not like it why not start a thread about other injustices in employment like solicitors and training contracts?

mumsneedwine · 06/02/2025 19:24

I give up. You don't care about anyone but yourself and your own. Most of us care about everyone's chances of having a job. I will not engage further as you don't seem to want to see the reality.

HighStars · 06/02/2025 19:25

Wooleys · 06/02/2025 19:20

I'm not in the least rude compared to people who seem to think that the only people with valid dreams are medics. I'm standing up for all the zillions of other young people who you minimise, by implication.

When you said on the other thread that an AIBU was a bad idea as it would quickly be derailed, I didn't realise that you were actually intending to derail it yourself.

Wooleys · 06/02/2025 19:26

mumsneedwine · 06/02/2025 19:22

@Wooleys right, obviously only your children are hard working and capable. Everybody else's are lazy wasters. Most of us have other children who are not doctors so we are well aware that it's a tough world. This thread is about doctors. And they gave one employer. No one else does

I think from your posts you have one other DC who is a vet. As I said, my next oldest DS is a corporate lawyer hence the comparison.

Please stop literally making up drama. You keep trying really, really hard to make this personal about my own DC. No idea why. Not everything needs to be highly charged. Also, as an aside, if you're this highly charged about the dire prospects for medical students why are there no warning in the medical application threads that you effectively run? Surely some caveats there would be the responsible way to go?

mumsneedwine · 06/02/2025 19:26

Thinking this person working in NHS management 😂

Wooleys · 06/02/2025 19:28

HighStars · 06/02/2025 19:25

When you said on the other thread that an AIBU was a bad idea as it would quickly be derailed, I didn't realise that you were actually intending to derail it yourself.

No idea what this is about sorry.

HighStars · 06/02/2025 19:29

Wooleys · 06/02/2025 19:28

No idea what this is about sorry.

Oh sorry I forgot. There has been a(another) name change since then.

CherubEarrings · 06/02/2025 19:29

The attempt to derail the thread looks like deliberate attempt to make the very good thread disintegrate. There have been some really good suggestions and information.

Maybe we should just not reply to any of @Wooley's goady posts and contine discussing. I am hoping this will be the start of a campaign to help the young doctors.

Wooleys · 06/02/2025 19:30

Although curious to know how I'm derailing a thread about medical career opportunities and pay/ conditions. I'm pretty much completely on point.

Needmoresleep · 06/02/2025 19:33

You keep telling us off.

You have two clearly quite remarkable children. Perhaps you should go away and spend more time with them.

OP posts:
mumsneedwine · 06/02/2025 19:34

@CherubEarrings I agree. Don't feed the trolls 🧌

mumsneedwine · 06/02/2025 19:34

@Needmoresleep 😂

Wooleys · 06/02/2025 19:42

Needmoresleep · 06/02/2025 19:33

You keep telling us off.

You have two clearly quite remarkable children. Perhaps you should go away and spend more time with them.

You know nothing about my DC. I'm not sure that at their stage in life they'd want their mummy rocking up to their flats to foist herself on them.

mumsneedwine · 06/02/2025 19:44

Hope MSRA went well for anyone who got results today.

takeittakeit · 06/02/2025 19:48

Sorry there is so many wrong things written by you OP. I work in b big hospital and we have 22 empty resident posts across varied specialities.
We advertise get 100+ applicants , short list 4-5 and it is not uncommon to have all pull out or not even bother to turn up - no message given.

Sometimes you have to take an unnumbered job for 6-12 months before the wanted training slot happens but you still learn on these jobs you seem to think are beneath them

Please get your facts right - drs have gone to OZ and NZ since the 1990s - was a good break from the grind and most but not all come back. Nothing has changed, very few people have a smooth run from FY1/FY2, CT1/ CT2, ST3-8 without taking an un numbered training job

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