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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors

1000 replies

Needmoresleep · 04/02/2025 09:18

Yes, you read it right!

At the end of their two foundation years (F1 & F2), young UK trained doctors are struggling to find work. They don’t want to go to Australia or NZ but for many this will be the only option. Seven or eight years study and work down the drain.
The UK supposedly has a shortage of doctors, so immigration rules have been amended to encourage overseas applicants. They then complete equally with those who are working in, or studied in the UK for both general entry level jobs (known informally as F3s) and for speciality training positions.

The average hard-working doctor does not stand much of a chance. Anecdotally even quite ordinary vacancies will attract hundreds if not thousands of on-line applications. The NHS does not keep statistics, but it appears that to keep numbers manageable many NHS Trusts will shut applications within a few hours. Tough for the junior doctor who is at work or sleeping off a night shift. The best from overseas will be very qualified with perhaps a decade of experience, and lots of additional bells and whistles, so it probably does not matter. They will score better so the chance of an interview for a young doctor who needs to build their own experience will be vanishingly low.

The expansion of medical school places, and allocation of some of these traditional entry level roles to Physician Associates is only exacerbating the problem.

Training positions are even more competitive. The Government has introduced a number of incentives to encourage applicants from overseas: exemptions from exams, guarantees on training and promises for British citizenship. Medical school places have been expanding without a parallel increase in training opportunities so bottlenecks would have happened anyway. In 2021 36% of new trainees were from medical schools outside the UK. In 2023 it was 41.5%. This trend is expected to be continuing, even accelerating.

A group of us have been on the higher education board since our DC were applying for medical school. They are now F2s spread across the country, working long hours for relatively little pay but enjoying the contribution they are making. None of them expect to get either a short term contract or a training position, so are applying to Australia or accepting that they will be reliant on zero hours NHS bank work covering staff absences.
As taxpayers we should be concerned that we are paying for medical schools, yet the NHS is not supporting their graduates into employment. We might also question why we are not giving priority to those already working in the NHS for the limited training slots. Doctors from elsewhere may be very good, but a significant proportion are then likely to leave to return home or to take up well paid private consultancy posts in either their home countries or in medical hubs like Dubai or Singapore.

Keir Starmer has said he will review sectors seeking labour from abroad to ensure that applications for the relevant visa routes, whether it’s the skilled worker route or the shortage occupation list will be balanced with expectations on training people here in our country. Wes Streeting seems to be refusing to answer questions on the topic. Whilst last week the BMA finally issued the following statement, albeit limited to training:
https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/bma-statement-on-speciality-training-application-bottlenecks

Any action will be too late for our DC. When they applied for medicine they did not realise that it would mean having to leave the country. The hope has to be that a way is found to retain those that follow and to allow our impressive young people to be able to return.

Press release icon

BMA statement on speciality training application bottlenecks - News and opinion - BMA

Statement from BMA chief officers.

https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/bma-statement-on-speciality-training-application-bottlenecks

OP posts:
Thread gallery
70
mumsneedwine · 06/02/2025 19:50

@takeittakeit can you tell us where and what speciality ? I can send loads of F2s your way tomorrow.

How are training posts not taken - they are allocated twice a year and no speciality has a fill rate of less than 97% ?

mumsneedwine · 06/02/2025 19:51

If you mean trust grade jobs then please please tell me where. Not much on NHS jobs today

mumsneedwine · 06/02/2025 19:53

It's not a smooth run they want. It's any job. It's nothing like the 1990s. There are now 40 applicants per job. Trust grade jobs close before they even get the chance to apply.

Wooleys · 06/02/2025 19:55

mumsneedwine · 06/02/2025 19:16

@Wooleys you're really not listening. Things have changed since your family members went through this. But good to know you'll be happy for yours to just leave and do something else

Younger one is an F1.

mumsneedwine · 06/02/2025 19:56

MSRA scores seem similar cut offs to last year. Bit higher for CST.

Wooleys · 06/02/2025 20:04

CherubEarrings · 06/02/2025 19:24

This is a thread about doctors. If you do not like it why not start a thread about other injustices in employment like solicitors and training contracts?

Comparisons are valuable. There's been a lot of tragi stuff about young doctors' 'dreams'. Just making the rather obvious point that these young doctors don't have a monopoly on dreams.

I don't think that there's any injustice, either for would be lawyers or would be registrars/ consultants. Not everyone can climb the ladder. Far too many young people hoping to go into both the legal and medical profession won't make it to the top. That's how things work, that's how it's always worked. In fact it would be fairly ridiculous it the system wasn't designed to have a cull at the various stages. That's why plenty of other posters have explained how tough it's been for them or for their family members to get through the various stages. It's possible that the expectation of a consultant's post should be tempered with reality, and not be seen as a right simply by virtue of graduating from medical school.

takeittakeit · 06/02/2025 20:06

40 applicants per job is a good ratio !

I was given by my boss in the early 2000s 502 CVs to short sit for 2 jobs!

OP every job in medicine is a training job you never stop learning. Some jobs might not be accredited but if you think that taking a non training job where you get the sme rota, pay and learning opportunities is not good enough - then you and the F2s you know do not have a good grasp of the fundamentals of training to be a doctor. You learn on every job, every day - sometimes how to do things right and the even more valuable experience of learning how not to do it or how you do not want to practice as a doctor.

We have just employed a doctor form India, he took a locum post via an agency because we are as always short of doctors. First job in the country, worked hard went above and beyond and we said we were advertising for a permanent post - apply. He did along with 82 other people. WE short listed 6 and only he turned up to the interview - he got the job, is a pleasure to work with and gets exactly the same learning as the training grades or any British Grad could have had if they applied and turned up for the interview. 4/6 shortlisted were British grads who did not bother to turn up on the day, did not withdraw and left no message. The other EU grad withdrew as had got a job the day before but had the courtesy to tell us.

This is a big London teaching hospital!

mumsneedwine · 06/02/2025 20:08

Have heard this debated 3 times this week on the radio. Let's hope it's gaining some traction. It's only going to get worse, especially next year when the extra medical students hit F2. No more jobs

takeittakeit · 06/02/2025 20:10

Trust grade jobs do not close before people ca apply - we have extended jobs as do my colleagues in other hospitals to get applicants

Sorry OP - I think you are being played to a certain extent. Yes it is tough, always has been and always will be that is life in any profession. The NHS is not the only employer - it is the majority employer agreed but you can get jobs doing other things whilst gilding your CV

mumsneedwine · 06/02/2025 20:11

@takeittakeit can you tell me which one ? I know many F2s in London and can send them your way.

I wish I could post the graphs (MN blocking photos). They show v clearly that the number of applicants per job has risen exponentially in the last 2 years. 5096 applied to EM this year - last year was 2944. Still 394 jobs.

Wooleys · 06/02/2025 20:11

takeittakeit · 06/02/2025 20:06

40 applicants per job is a good ratio !

I was given by my boss in the early 2000s 502 CVs to short sit for 2 jobs!

OP every job in medicine is a training job you never stop learning. Some jobs might not be accredited but if you think that taking a non training job where you get the sme rota, pay and learning opportunities is not good enough - then you and the F2s you know do not have a good grasp of the fundamentals of training to be a doctor. You learn on every job, every day - sometimes how to do things right and the even more valuable experience of learning how not to do it or how you do not want to practice as a doctor.

We have just employed a doctor form India, he took a locum post via an agency because we are as always short of doctors. First job in the country, worked hard went above and beyond and we said we were advertising for a permanent post - apply. He did along with 82 other people. WE short listed 6 and only he turned up to the interview - he got the job, is a pleasure to work with and gets exactly the same learning as the training grades or any British Grad could have had if they applied and turned up for the interview. 4/6 shortlisted were British grads who did not bother to turn up on the day, did not withdraw and left no message. The other EU grad withdrew as had got a job the day before but had the courtesy to tell us.

This is a big London teaching hospital!

Wow. That's quite an eye opener given the hand wringing on this thread. Are you able to say what specialty (quite understand if you'd prefer not). The lack of courtesy is staggering: how hard can it be not to email to say you won't be attending?

takeittakeit · 06/02/2025 20:11

Central London surgical jobs, anaeshetic jobs, medical

mumsneedwine · 06/02/2025 20:12

@takeittakeit please day where. I know lots of F2s who would love an anaesthetist SHO job. Or link one job and I can find the rest

mumsneedwine · 06/02/2025 20:12

I've done a search and can't find anything ?

mumsneedwine · 06/02/2025 20:18

If you send me the job details, even by private message, I can send lots of F2s to you tomorrow.

Wooleys · 06/02/2025 20:24

Ridiculous.

Forgotmyunagain · 06/02/2025 20:24

I think the point made upthread about the role of recruitment agencies is very valid. Since India has been specifically mentioned in this thread, I thought I’d share a perspective from the other side. I am an immigrant that moved from South Asia to another western country (not the UK) several decades ago, and I have relatives in the healthcare profession both in Asia and the UK.
The narrative presented by NHS recruitment agencies in India is that the ‘NHS is seeking to address its medical professional shortage by hiring from India’.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/education/news/nhs-to-recruit-2000-indian-doctors-for-uk-healthcare-system-know-practice-requirements/articleshow/108609480.cms
However, the Indian Medical Association (the GMC equivalent) has refused to support the recruitment drive.
https://www.news18.com/india/ima-refuses-to-participate-in-uks-recruitment-drive-for-indian-doctors-over-brain-drain-concerns-8825835.html
As you can see, the IMA president has reiterated that the UK is only looking for skilled doctors, not young graduates — many of whom face joblessness in India too. This issue is exacerbated by the growing number of medical schools opening in India over recent years, creating bottlenecks in progression. Unfortunately, this seems to be an issue with the profession globally.
In my opinion, British graduates should be prioritized, and rightfully so. However, it seems this is not happening, as the major employer appears to be cutting costs by hiring trained professionals from elsewhere. While much has been discussed about the level of training international doctors bring, I believe the main issue is likely related to communication and a lack of knowledge about the UK healthcare system, rather than any deficiencies in clinical or surgical expertise.
An interesting anecdote about communication: A friend, whose family moved to the UK from the Punjab region generations ago (as part of the British Empire), has a son working as an FY1 in the NHS. His native language is English, and he only has rudimentary knowledge of Punjabi. However, he still faces communication issues because many patients in his busy city hospital do not speak English, and rely on family members or translators (usually another overworked nurse or doctor!) to help with translation. The extent of this lack of integration — to the point where people don't know the local language — seems pretty complex. And probably another discussion for the British politicians and the public!

IMA Refuses to Participate in UK's Recruitment Drive for Indian Doctors Over Brain Drain Concerns - News18

In an exclusive interview, Dr RV Asokan, national president of IMA, told News18 that being a national body, IMA does not want to support the migration of skilled doctors as it could undermine the Indian healthcare system

https://www.news18.com/india/ima-refuses-to-participate-in-uks-recruitment-drive-for-indian-doctors-over-brain-drain-concerns-8825835.html

mumsneedwine · 06/02/2025 20:25

Some people really are. I meanwhile have many ex students, mostly from London, who don't have a job for August. If I can help them get one then that's great.

Wooleys · 06/02/2025 20:30

It isn't how professional recruitment for serious jobs works mumsneedwine. It's too ridiculous for words.

mumsneedwine · 06/02/2025 20:35

You really are a sad person. I have searched for 22 jobs at any hospital in the UK at trust grade and there are none. There are 2 anaesthetic jobs.

My students are from v poor bs grounds. They have worked v hard to be one doctors and want to work in the NHS. If someone is telling me there are 22 jobs going begging I will help them get them.

This is exactly how professional recruitment works - ever heard of Linkdin ? Who you know

Wooleys · 06/02/2025 20:35

An interesting anecdote about communication: A friend, whose family moved to the UK from the Punjab region generations ago (as part of the British Empire), has a son working as an FY1 in the NHS. His native language is English, and he only has rudimentary knowledge of Punjabi. However, he still faces communication issues because many patients in his busy city hospital do not speak English, and rely on family members or translators (usually another overworked nurse or doctor!) to help with translation. The extent of this lack of integration — to the point where people don't know the local language — seems pretty complex. And probably another discussion for the British politicians and the public!

That is certainly interesting. I was going to make the point earlier when there was a chorus of support for 'British' doctors having an innate advantage due to shared cultural norms. A lot of posters here may live in very undiverse areas but so many doctors work in areas which are quite the reverse.

mumsneedwine · 06/02/2025 20:36

Trolls out in force tonight. It's almost like people who don't know the reality want to argue it's not true. Wonder why ?

Wooleys · 06/02/2025 20:36

mumsneedwine · 06/02/2025 20:35

You really are a sad person. I have searched for 22 jobs at any hospital in the UK at trust grade and there are none. There are 2 anaesthetic jobs.

My students are from v poor bs grounds. They have worked v hard to be one doctors and want to work in the NHS. If someone is telling me there are 22 jobs going begging I will help them get them.

This is exactly how professional recruitment works - ever heard of Linkdin ? Who you know

LinkedIn.

mumsneedwine · 06/02/2025 20:37

Meanwhile all these posts keep this thread trending. Thank you for your help.

mumsneedwine · 06/02/2025 20:38

Ooooh. Spelling pendant out now. How clever you are 😂

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